What is the "ballpark" for pitching rate?

[Zwerg]

Boring newb question here - a friend and I just brewed a LaChouffe clone. We used DME and the OG came to 1.080, exactly as the recipe indicated.

We didn't make a starter, so we bought three packets (each containing 100 billion yeast cells) of Wyeast Belgian Ardennes. I used a calculator that suggested for a five gallon batch at 1.080, we would need about 270 billion yeast cells. However, when we pitched, we forgot to withhold a little bit of the final packet, so we ended up pitching the contents of all three packets.

I know overpitching is possible, but 3.0 instead of 2.7 seems like a pretty small deviation - is this in the ballpark, or do I need to worry? (I know - don't worry - drink a beer). When people talking about "overpitching" are they talking more about accidentally pitching 150% or 200% of the correct amount?

Thanks!

 

[oakbarn]

Did you use a Yeast Calculator and use the dates on the Yeast?

https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
You may have underpitched as the older the Yeast, the less viable.

 

[Zwerg]

Hmm, okay. The yeast was from July, I think. So yes, according to this, I actually underpitched.

Does this mean I should pitch more yeast? Or is there a chance it could still do the job and I should wait and see?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

If I remember correctly, what you should aim for in a normal strenght wort is something like 8-10 billion cells/Liter. Altough with the use of SNS starters and the like, many believe that pitching an actively fermenting starter/peak activity yeast is more important than the number of yeast cells pitched.
I have after trying that method a couple times come to think there might be something to it. YMMW.

 

[oakbarn]

Is the yeast active? After all. a Starter is just a small batch of beer where you give the yeast a start. If it is active, you should be fine. Wyeast is made so the smack pack is a mini Starter.

 

[Golddiggie]

IIRC, I've under/over pitched (by the starter calc tools) by as much as about 20% without any issues (usually overpitching by a lower percentage). I try to not go beyond that deviation range whenever possible. Keep in mind, this is using either one, or two, starter steps for the yeast. With one to three days (typically, but sometimes up to a week) from coming off the stirplate to going into the fermenter. The larger under pitching were typically after a two step starter. Since I do starters in 1L increments (using canned Proper Starter) I get 'close enough for gubmint work' on these.

@Zwerg Run the OG and such through one of the calc tools available to see what you needed for cell count. Input the date of the yeast package so that it can also figure out viability levels for the yeast as well. Then you'll know if you really did over pitch. IMO, though, over pitching by that low of a deviation won't be an issue.

BTW, what were you going to save some of the yeast for? If for bottle conditioning, why? There should be enough yeast left in the beer at the end of fermentation to bottle condition/carbonate once you add the extra sugars to the batch. Of course, I've been kegging for a long time now, so I never worry about that. Even bottling/canning off of kegs (before carbonating in in conical and then packaging directly from those).

 

[NeoBrew]

Hmm, okay. The yeast was from July, I think. So yes, according to this, I actually underpitched.

Does this mean I should pitch more yeast? Or is there a chance it could still do the job and I should wait and see?

Don't mess with it. Yeast is resilient, if it needs to take a little longer or grow up come more cells to finish your beer it will. One of the hardest lessons to learn in making beer is patience. Tinkering can makes things worse. The yeast know their job. Let them do it.

 

[IslandLizard]

I think you'll be fine with that pitch, as long as the yeast was in good condition, not been "abused."

Now spending around $25 on yeast alone in a 5 gallon batch of beer is getting to the point where you should start considering to make starters. A single pack or sleeve can yield enough yeast for 20+ batches for many years to come, and by making starters you know the yeast you pitch is viable and vital, and has the recommended pitch rate.

 

[Golddiggie]

I think you'll be fine with that pitch, as long as the yeast was in good condition, not been "abused."

Now spending around $25 on yeast alone in a 5 gallon batch of beer is getting to the point where you should start considering to make starters. A single pack or sleeve can yield enough yeast for 20+ batches for many years to come, and by making starters you know the yeast you pitch is viable and vital, and has the recommended pitch rate.

Last batch I made a small (1L) starter from part of the yeast harvest from a previous batch (harvest was about a week prior to the starter getting made). Put about a cup of slurry into the 1L starter and let it ride (on the stirplate). About 24-36 hours later I stopped it and let it settle. Ended up with double the volume of yeast. That went into the batch and was going ape nuts in about six hours. That type of reaction is the norm, for me, when pitching yeast from a starter.

I haven't yet decided if I'm going to use the harvest from that batch, or not. I have a fresh package of yeast in the fridge I could use for the next batch. I figure if I only purchase one, or two, packages of yeast a year, I'm doing well. I know I could go longer...

 

[Zwerg]

Thanks, everyone. According to the yeast calculator, based on the fact that the packets were a couple months old, I think I technically underpitched. @Golddiggie I hadn't actually planned to save the extra yeast, I just meant to not pitch the full three packets in order to avoid overpitching - although now I see I was right to pitch three packets (and given viability concerns that may still not have been enough).

I'm now 15 hours after pitching, and I'm starting to see airlock activity and bubbles rising - no krausen yet. Maybe I underpitched and it will just be a slow start...

I will definitely make a starter next time, I had just never made one before and by the time we figured out it might be necessary for this beer, we didn't have time and so decided to just pitch more packets ($$$).

 

[IslandLizard]

I will definitely make a starter next time

Ace!

Start planning at least a week before you brew, especially when larger pitches are needed, such as larger batches, or high gravity worts and Lagers. That way you have ample time to build a starter and hopefully overbuild it by 100 billion cells, so you can save those out, to make a starter from next time, etc.

A 2 liter flask, a stir plate (home built or bought) and DME, is all you need. Oh, and a (small, 1 oz) bottle of Fermcap-S to reduce/control foaming. Don't boil in the (glass) flask, use a stainless pot and a well fitting lid, instead. Chills faster in the sink or in a dishwash tub filled with cold water too.

I actually enjoy making starters.
Last month I "revived" a bunch of yeast I had saved out from starters saved in 4 and 8 oz mason (jelly) jars I had made in 2016 (yup, time flies!).

 

[Zwerg]

Great advice, thank you!

 

[Golddiggie]

I find that I use my 3L flask the most for my starters. This allows me to make a 2L starter for either a first, or second, step when I need a LOT more yeast than a single starter step will provide. I've even done three starter steps in the past. Not since picking up brewing again (early last year).

I find making a 1L starter in the 3L flask means I have far less concerns around foaming of the starter. I also use the foam plugs in the flask (sanitized of course) to make for easier (safe) gas exchange.

I've also been using the cross shaped stir bars. I'm thinking of using one of the regular/straight ones for my next starter. Just to see how it works. In the past I was able to get a solid vortex easier with the cross shaped stir bar than the straight ones. I have different sizes for both types on hand (of course).

BTW, I also have a 2L and 5L flask. Can't recall when I used the 5L flask.

 

[IslandLizard]

I find that I use my 3L flask the most for my starters.

I agree, 3 liter flasks are much more useful for starters than 2 liter ones. The only problem is finding space in the fridge for them when cold crashing. You could stick em in the keezer perhaps, on the hump.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

We at Bel Air purposely over pitch each brew. The actual cell count (in billions) is a wild guess, so we go by volume. A one gallon glass jug is used to store the yeast.

For the most part we only use harvested yeast. A normal slurry volume will be 2 quarts. If the yeast is super fresh, that is harvested within a week or two of pitching time, it will go straight from the storage fridge into the wort. A normal brew size is 10 gallons, so figure 1 quart per 5 gallons of wort.

If it is a month old or more, we will make a starter to "wake up" the yeast.
We brew mostly lagers and ferment at 48-50 F.

 

[AZ Maverick]

I always make a starter with either liquid or dry yeast and I tend to slightly overpitch based on the yeast calculators.
But Brulosophy did a couple of Xbmts that show pretty much that you can under or overpitch without having to worry much...
Yeast Pitch Rate: Single Vial vs. Yeast Starter | exBEERiment Results!
Yeast Pitch Rate: Underpitch vs. Overpitch In A Lager | exBEERiment Results!

 

[Zwerg]

Update - seems like I didn't need to worry, I had a very vigorous fermentation by ~30 hours after pitching, with krausen pushing through the blow-off tube - glad that I wasn't just using a regular airlock.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

Are your usual batches 2hr boils and 5gal as well?

I find boil-off to be the most difficult factor to dial in for constancy.

I always make a starter with either liquid or dry yeast and I tend to slightly overpitch based on the yeast calculators.
But Brulosophy did a couple of Xbmts that show pretty much that you can under or overpitch without having to worry much...
Yeast Pitch Rate: Single Vial vs. Yeast Starter | exBEERiment Results!
Yeast Pitch Rate: Underpitch vs. Overpitch In A Lager | exBEERiment Results!

These Brulosophy experiments are always interesting. And 99% of the time, the subjects who do the tasting cannot tell the difference in the beers.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

These Brulosophy experiments are always interesting. And 99% of the time, the subjects who do the tasting cannot tell the difference in the beers.

I've also come to believe that this whole optimising pitch rates might be a bit overzealous, and that as long the yeast is healthy your beer will be fine.