Weird clove astringency after bottling

[Mikeyb45]

Good evening all. I'm posting in hopes that someone can save a novice home-brewer from finally throwing in the towel. I'm 15 brews into my BIAB all-grain adventures and every single brew so far has been embarrassing enough to dump down the drain. I don't give up on things easily but I can't continue to spend time, money, and effort on something that just fails over and over again. The finished product always winds up with a weird flavor I can only describe as a weird clovey astringency. It overpowers all of the natural malt/hop flavors that should be present. A bit of Google research a while back caused me to attribute this to chlorophenols, leading me to attempt the following corrections:

1) Sanitizer - a long time ago I was only "sanitizing" with one-step solution. I've since added star-san at every single step of the process and made sure all equipment makes sufficient contact with the solution as per the directions on the bottle. Didn't notice any change.
2) Equipment - I recycled all plastics (buckets, auto-siphons, airlocks, rubber stoppers, etc. and replaced them with brand new ones. Didn't notice any change.
3) Yeast - I've tried several different varieties of yeast - started with US-05, then switched to Nottingham, and also tried BRY-97. Didn't notice any change.
4) Pitch and fermentation temps - I always pitch at 70F and ferment at +/- 2 degrees from there.
5) Water - I learned to treat my tap water with campden and also tried buying RO water from 2 different grocery stores. Didn't notice any change.

Now for what I hope will be the strongest clue. On my last 3 brews (a rye IPA, an imperial IPA, and a cream ale) I've become anal about trying to determine where in the process this flavor is being introduced. In all three cases, I did not detect any off flavors before pitching, when transferring to secondary (and dry hopping), or when bottling. The flavors only become noticeable when drinking the finished product out of the bottle. Of course this will beg the question - how good is your bottle cleaning/sanitation? I soak the bottles with hot water for an hour, clean and shake vigorously with one-step solution, and sanitize with star-san, so I don't believe there's a sanitation issue. I similarly treat the auto siphon and bottling bucket. I've also noticed this with brand new bottles, and even tried 16oz swing tops as well as standard 12oz bottles that get capped. I add about 2/3 cup of corn sugar boiled with water for 10 minutes to the bottling bucket before bottling and stir. Bottling is perform through the auto siphon with a bottling wand (so not going through any gaskets/spigots on the bucket).

Someone please help me! I'm hanging on to this hobby by a thread and don't want to give up but my frustration level is at my personal peak!

 

[S-Met]

Have you only all grain biab or did you extract brewed as well?

I would consider a very basic extract attempt, maybe even 1 gal to seeif the flavors are ok. If its good, add complexity, maybe ag biab 1gal. Keep scaling and add complexity each step until you identify off flavors.

And might have overlooked, but what is your mash temp, ph and h2o chemistry.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Clove is typically associated with 4-vinyl guaiacol (a phenol but not a chlorophenol). This is a product of Phenolic Off Flavor positive (POF+) yeast. Most wild yeast are POF+, but it's also characteristic of German weissbier yeast strains. Saison and Belgian strains are often POF+ too, but usually not big on clove.

In my opinion, a yeast phenol being present across multiple batches with different yeasts plus the timing of showing up after bottling pretty much guarantees you're dealing with an ongoing source of contamination somewhere in your process.

I'd walk through every single thing that touches the beer after the boil. Eliminate what you can (simplify your process to track down the source) and either replace or thoroughly clean and sanitize the necessary items. Take care to break apart everything like spigots and bottling wands. Boil or heat sanitize anything that can withstand it.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Off flavors are tough sometimes to describe and compare, but lets define astringency to make sure we are on the same path... Tannin like. Drying. Maybe a little tart or vinegar like.

Chlorophenols should present as something like chewing on plastic or vinyl. However there are many classes of chlorophenols and they could present differently. I could however see polyphenols creating some astringency and they are tannin like. Most commonly caused from the skins and husks of grains leaching the tannins when they are heated above about 180F (do you rinse the grain with super hot or boiling water?). Grinding grain too finely and/or mashing/steeping for too long can also cause astringency.

Clove like (sometimes also sensed as medicinal or spicy). Generally also phenol related. Can also be caused in mashing, rinsing and temperatures. Possibly pH levels out of whack (I dont remember off the top of my head if pH would need to be too low or too high to cause this). If you are using RO water, do you adjust the chemistry? Maybe adding some calcium or gypsum or anything?
​

A couple of other thoughts...
What are you boiling in? what type of material is it?
Find a different fermentation vessel
Do not pour boiling wort into your fermenter. let it cool a bit first. avoid any chemicals being released when the plastic is hot.
Hops and over-hopped beers can be astringent. Especially if they are old or stale or oxidized
Clean clean clean and be OCD with hygiene. Every tube, every spoon, etc.
Does your bag have any holes in it? Do you get bits of grain in your boil? Too course a bag?

Most importantly... After fermentation is complete, never pour, splash, aerate, or vigorously stir the beer. Oxygen will degrade beer and its really easy to tell. If you need to add sugar to carbonate for bottling, pre-dissolve it and slowly stir in without creating bubbles (cavitation) or put the sugar in the bottles. When racking or siphoning, let the output tube go all the way down to the bottom so its not making bubbles as it flows.

Hope something here helps.

 

[RM-MN]

3) Yeast - I've tried several different varieties of yeast - started with US-05, then switched to Nottingham, and also tried BRY-97. Didn't notice any change.
4) Pitch and fermentation temps - I always pitch at 70F and ferment at +/- 2 degrees from there.

These two together stand out as a possible cause. Nottingham ferments quite clean at lower temperatures. Try fermenting a batch where you control the temperature to 58 to 62 degrees. It will take longer to start and to complete the ferment. Make sure the wort it chilled to this temperature range before pitching the yeast and that the wort is aerated. After about a week at those temperatures move the fermenter to where the 70 degree is and let it have another week to 2 weeks before bottling.

 

[Mikeyb45]

Thanks for the advice everybody. It's so refreshing to see how this community takes care of each other. Before brewing beer I was into winemaking and I made about 30 batches without a single issue. I know that's a much more forgiving process, but had I known what I was getting into, I may have stuck with being a vintner, lol. Sorry I can't be more specific about the exact flavor...I'm almost sure I taste clove but may need to find a local expert to sample and confirm. The astringency part might just be in my head....most of what I've made has been heavily hopped and I could be misidentifying that as astringency in the presence of the clove ickiness. Let me clarify/answer a few things from above:

- I haven't looked at my water chemistry or pH. The 2 times I did use RO water, I didn't add anything to it. I confirmed with the city that they don't treat with chloramine. Maybe I need to look at pH...
- I'm boiling in a 10 gallon stainless kettle and using a homemade copper wort chiller (boiled for the last 15 minutes) to chill.
- One thing identified above I'm probably not doing right...I'm pouring the priming solution into the bottling bucket and giving it a pretty good stir to make sure it's evenly distributed. I had issues in the past with some bottles not being carbonated and other bottles over-carbonated. I may need to rethink this part.
- I typically mash at about 152F in a MoreBeer bag specifically designed for BIAB. Generally hitting IG and OG to within +/- .005 and haven't noticed anything off at this stage so haven't focused on it.
- All but 1 of my brews have been dry-hopped. Is there opportunity here to infect something? I'm dumping the pellets straight into the beer, ie. no hop bags or anything. I haven't focused on this step either since the product still tastes good at time of bottling.

Based on the advice above, I think the next few things I will try in order are:
1) Sanitize the bottles/bottling process even more. Then sanitize again. And again. I thought I was being pretty thorough here but I'll take another look.
2) Go back to basics and try another extract brew just to rule out any BIAB-specific items. I can't remember if my early extract brews 1.5 years ago exhibited this or not.
3) Pitch/ferment at ~60F. My basement stays around 70 so I'll need to get a chiller to do this.
4) I could also look at getting kegs and force carbonating. I haven't wanted to spend the money on this until I'm confident I can make good beer, but if something with my bottling process is the culprit I'd be willing to spend the money to get away from that. I keep going back to the fact that everything tastes good up until the first bottle is opened...is it possible that something earlier in the process was the cause but it isn't evident until the very end?

Thanks again everybody!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sanitize the bottles/bottling process even more. Then sanitize again. And again. I thought I was being pretty thorough here but I'll take another look.

The contamination isn't necessarily introduced during bottling; it may be at any point on the cold side since the wild yeast are being introduced in low cell counts and will be growing very slowly.
Pull off a sample from the fermenter into a sanitized mason jar right before bottling and leave it at the same temperature as your bottles. That will help determine when the contamination occurs by comparing it to your bottles.

Again, clove flavor (4VG) would only be coming from wild yeast, not from a mash-related or fermentation issue. Wild yeast are generally great at producing 4VG.
The vast majority of brewer's yeast strains simply do not produce clove flavor (phenols) under any circumstance. They may produce esters, fusels, or hydrogen sulfide when stressed, but not phenols and therefore not clove.

The fact that it takes time for it to develop also confirms that it's contamination. The wild yeast will be growing slowly.
In beers that have undesirable compounds from poor mash chemistry or undesirable byproducts from poor fermentation temperature control, the flaws are abundantly evident before bottling.

It's flawed logic (non sequitur) saying "since phenols can come from the mash and clove is a phenol, therefore clove can come from the mash." It can't.

If any of my facts aren't straight, I'd love to hear it.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Some people will perceive flavors differently than others. I've sat at judging tables with other experienced judges and one person said clove and another said pepper or other spices. Textually and online, we can't assume anything or assume someone's taste buds are accurate.

clove flavor (4VG) would only be coming from wild yeast, not from a mash-related or fermentation issue

The vast majority of brewer's yeast strains simply do not produce clove flavor (phenols) under any circumstance

Fermenting with a wheat or wit (and some belgian) yeast at its lower temp ranges, tend to produce clove like flavors. But to be more accurate, the yeast is not specifically throwing 4VG, it is a byproduct of decarboxylation of ferulic acid. Thus another way of increasing clove like character is to increase ferulic acid, which can be achieved in the mash process. So in theory, more clove character CAN come from the mashing process and IS related to the actions of the yeast

But... I think we have now exceeded the scope at which the O/P wanted to go. LOL

 

[RPh_Guy]

Some people will perceive flavors differently than others.

Fair enough, maybe he isn't actually tasting clove.

not specifically throwing 4VG, it is a byproduct of decarboxylation of ferulic acid.

Decarboxylation of ferulic acid does specifically result in 4VG.

To my knowledge, ferulic acid does not give a clove flavor by itself. Otherwise every mash with an acid rest would taste like clove.
AND this wouldn't account for the flavor showing up after bottling in this case.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Decarboxylation of ferulic acid does specifically result in 4VG

yup. thats what I tried to say but I haven't had enough coffee today

To my knowledge, ferulic acid does not give a clove flavor by itself

i believe that is correct. the ferulic acid must be processed by decarboxylation thence the clove taste comes from the 4VG result.

 

[RPh_Guy]

So we agree that the OP must have a yeast that's producing clove (if in fact that's what he tastes)?

 

[SoCal-Doug]

All but 1 of my brews have been dry-hopped. Is there opportunity here to infect something?

Yes, but just a small chance. Hop oils tend to be naturally antiseptic. You could soak them in a little vodka overnight if it concerns you.

Did you use the same type of hop in all the batches? Could your taste buds dislike that type? (the cream ale going south kinda screws up that theory though)

I recommend you try a really simple pale ale or similar clean and refreshing recipe, with low but balanced hopping and a clean yeast like US05 or WLP029. Not too high an ABV. A good "lawn mowing beer". Basically keep the oddball potentials away and if there are off flavors, they will immediately show through. No wheats or wits. They will throw solid clove, banana or a mixture of both.

Fair disclosure: I'm a real bad judge of flavors when it comes to IPA's. I despise anything over-hopped and can't taste a damn thing past the gasoline or turpentine flavor of a bunch of hops

Lot's of ways of getting contamination... Fittings, threads and valves are great collectors for some really nasty looking schmutz. Sometimes disassembly, scrubbing and sterilizing is required. I knew a guy that ruined a lot of beers because his driveway where he brewed was surrounded by fruit trees and wild yeasts were everywhere. His brews all soured until he moved his operation inside and started doing closed transfers. Flours and bread making in the same kitchen as brewing has been known to infect beer. Pretend everything you touch or brew with is completely coated with bad juju germs and sanitize accordingly.

Definitely get some more opinions on the flavors. Don't give your Guinee pigs any hints or lead ins. See what they say first.