Water Quality Report has ranges

[millhouse9]

I'm new to water chemistry and just got my water report from the local company. The report they gave me has ranges. I know I should go through ward labs to get an official report for my water, do y'all think I should use the high or low range, or just split the difference in the meantime? Here are my results:

PH: 7.25 - 7.63
Calcium: 47 - 66.5 ppm
Magnesium: 10.2 - 11.5 ppm
Sodium: 28.4 - 41.2 ppm
Sulfate: 17.5 - 20.1 ppm
Chloride: Non-Detect - 7.44 ppm
Bicarbonate (listed as alkalinity): 229 - 258 ppm

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm not new to homebrewing, but new to water chemistry as it has always intimidated me.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If it's listed as alkalinity, its alkalinity. It can be converted into bicarbonate, but it isn't bicarbonate. And that's a lot of alkalinity to contend with.

The problem with water is that it has to be real. Cations and Anions must balance as to their +/- charges. You can take a midrange and then play with the numbers to find one potential reality. Fortunately, since your ranges are not extreme this will likely work well enough for most purposes (including beer making). But neither you nor Ward Labs will ever be able to tell you on any given day what the true reality of your water analyticals will actually be.

Your water isn't bad overall. The alkalinity will (for most recipes) need to be knocked out either completely or partially via acidification. 85% Phosphoric Acid is your friend here, but bear in mind that it is a very dangerous friend to play with, and take all due precautions when handling it. It will also benefit from some added chloride ions. CaCl2 (calcium chloride) will work here.

Do you know if your water authority adds chlorine or chloramine as bactericides?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I'm new to water chemistry and just got my water report from the local company. The report they gave me has ranges. I know I should go through ward labs to get an official report for my water, do y'all think I should use the high or low range, or just split the difference in the meantime? Here are my results:

PH: 7.25 - 7.63
Calcium: 47 - 66.5 ppm
Magnesium: 10.2 - 11.5 ppm
Sodium: 28.4 - 41.2 ppm
Sulfate: 17.5 - 20.1 ppm
Chloride: Non-Detect - 7.44 ppm
Bicarbonate (listed as alkalinity): 229 - 258 ppm

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm not new to homebrewing, but new to water chemistry as it has always intimidated me.

The ranges mean that the water changes seasonally, or that your supply is affected by a periodic mix of sources. A ward report would only tell what the water condition was on the day of that sample.

You may be able to get more clarification about what causes the range variations by talking to the water company. Best case scenario would be to see if you can be included in a monthly distribution of the municipal lab report.

 

[millhouse9]

Sorry - I thought I read that alkalinity values can be used for bicarbonate, but obviously that is wrong. How do I get my bicarbonate level?

 

[Homergah]

The area you're in probably has multiple sources of water supply. The best you can do using that report is to split the difference. The best you can do with that water source is to get a water test kit of your own and test before every brew. Honestly though, if you plug in the low numbers to a water chemistry app you may not see a big difference in the amount of salts required to get to the desired profile as opposed to plugging in the high side of the range.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Sorry - I thought I read that alkalinity values can be used for bicarbonate, but obviously that is wrong. How do I get my bicarbonate level?

At normal pH ranges, and yours is normal, Bicarbonate is very close to Alkalinity * 61/50. Most software asks for Alkalinity. One that I'm aware of asks for Bicarbonate.

 

[millhouse9]

If it's listed as alkalinity, its alkalinity. It can be converted into bicarbonate, but it isn't bicarbonate. And that's a lot of alkalinity to contend with.

The problem with water is that it has to be real. Cations and Anions must balance as to their +/- charges. You can take a midrange and then play with the numbers to find one potential reality. Fortunately, since your ranges are not extreme this will likely work well enough for most purposes (including beer making). But neither you nor Ward Labs will ever be able to tell you on any given day what the true reality of your water analyticals will actually be.

Your water isn't bad overall. The alkalinity will (for most recipes) need to be knocked out either completely or partially via acidification. 85% Phosphoric Acid is your friend here, but bear in mind that it is a very dangerous friend to play with, and take all due precautions when handling it. It will also benefit from some added chloride ions. CaCl2 (calcium chloride) will work here.

Do you know if your water authority adds chlorine or chloramine as bactericides?

I just called and they do not add chlorine or chloramine to the water. The lady on the phone said it's tested 8 times a month and they've never had to add chlorine or chloramine. I guess I don't need to use campden tablets then...

 

[ajdelange]

You don't really care about what the bicarbonate level is because by the time you get to mash/wort pH the bicarbonate has been converted to carbonate and driven off. What you do care about is how much acid it takes to get to an appropriate level of mash/wort pH and that is exactly what alkalinity tells you. Regrettably most of the authors of spreadsheets and calculators are unaware of this and even in the case of one eccentric spreadsheet not only base the calculations on bicarbonate but use bicarbonate as a proxy for alkalinity from whatever source, consider acid to be a source of negative bicarbonate etc.

As to the variations: there are 5 things you can do
1)Obtain a lab analysis each time you brew
2)Measure the alkalinity each time you brew
3)Use the 0 effective alkalinity method (automatically "measures" the alkalinity each time you brew- see Sticky)
4)Observe that the variation in alkalinity is 0.05 log units (half a dB) and ignore the variations as they are, in your case, so small.
5)Remove the variations by removing the alkalinity (and all the other mineral ions) by using an RO system.

In the long run Option 5 is probably the best for you not because of the variation but because the alkalinity level is so high at 250/50 = 5 mEq/L. Under 1 is considered good.

If you still want to know bicarbonate level for some reason (i.e. using one of the archaic spreadsheets/calculators) you can convert alkalinity to mEq/L by diving the ppm as CaCO3 number by 50 to get mEq/L and then multiplying that by 61 mg/mEq which is the equivalent weight of bicarbonate ion e.g. alkalinity of 250 ppm as CaCO3 corresponds to 5 mEq/L and 305 mg/L. Note that this works well over a limited range of pH. Your pH is nudging the edge of that range but you are still going to be pretty close - not that it really matters.

 

[ajdelange]

You can take a midrange and then play with the numbers to find one potential reality. Fortunately, since your ranges are not extreme this will likely work well enough for most purposes (including beer making).

There is a well know procedure for computing the bicarbonate and carbonate ion concentrations in a water sample at a given pH from the alkalinity and source sample pH. But, as noted in my previous post, good software doesn't care about the concentration of the ions but only on the sum of the charges on carbonate, bicarbonate and hydrogen ions. The formulas for the calculations are given in the Stickies and have been discussed here extensively.

But neither you nor Ward Labs will ever be able to tell you on any given day what the true reality of your water analyticals will actually be.

Perhaps not but I and anyone using the aforementioned formulas with good measurements of alkalinity and source pH can (with an allowance, of course, for measurement error).

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

That's why I gave up trying to tweak the water. Is it high or low in the range this month or week? Even the public utilities were of no help. I didn't feel like running to the store for distilled water for brewing. I use tap water. Friend whom worries about his brewing water, uses reverse osmosis water, adds chemicals, worries, etc went on and on about treating the water. He tasted my homebrew against his and found no taste difference/defect due to me using simple tap water.

 

[millhouse9]

Thanks everyone. Sounds like I need to look in to using RO water. I've been using the tapwater in my house for three years now and haven't had any real issues in the quality of my homebrew. I am planning on brewing a NEIPA for the first time and Beersmith suggested adding some Calcium Chloride, about 9.2 grams, to get my chloride levels up. Should I follow that advice? Maybe I should just leave my tapwater as is? I apologize for my noob water chemistry questions.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Hmm... I normally add 500mg of potassium metabisulphite to my HLT (20 gallons) to remove chlorine/chloramine.

Here is a thread from BeerAdvocate on why adding Calcium Chloride.

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/calcium-chloride.47414/

 

[ajdelange]

I've been using the tapwater in my house for three years now and haven't had any real issues in the quality of my homebrew. I am planning on brewing a NEIPA for the first time and Beersmith suggested adding some Calcium Chloride, about 9.2 grams, to get my chloride levels up. Should I follow that advice?

The major problem with your water is the high alkalinity (5 mEq/L - you want less than 1). A secondary problem is that you are low in chloride to the point that the beer may come off as thin so yes, I would add some chloride. Half a gram per gallon is a good starting point.

I apologize for my noob water chemistry questions

No need to apologize. While this forum is called the Brewing Science Forum and other things do get discussed it is effectively the Water Forum. The only problem you are likely to encounter here is that some of the discussions get advanced to the point that they may be incomprehensible to you and the people that participate in those discussions may forget they are addressing a new comer and use terms that are unfamiliar.

 

[millhouse9]

Thank you for your kind words.

The major problem with your water is the high alkalinity (5 mEq/L - you want less than 1).

For the alkalinity, I know another member mentioned using phosphoric acid, but cautioned me to be careful as it is dangerous stuff if not handled properly. Couldn't I achieve similar results to reduce alkalinity by using acidulated malt to lower the mash ph? I'm not sure I want mess around with phosphoric acid just yet.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thank you for your kind words.



For the alkalinity, I know another member mentioned using phosphoric acid, but cautioned me to be careful as it is dangerous stuff if not handled properly. Couldn't I achieve similar results to reduce alkalinity by using acidulated malt to lower the mash ph? I'm not sure I want mess around with phosphoric acid just yet.

Yes, but you will likely begin to taste it. And you may not like it. Phosphoric Acid contributes right close to nothing to flavor.

Try it once or twice, and if the flavor alteration does not disagree with you, then continue using acidulated malt.

 

[ajdelange]

Your caution is laudable. Phosphoric acid is sold in 10% strength at wine making and HB suppliers. At that strength it is pretty harmless (but don't gargle it, use it as eyewash etc IOW use common sense). Properly handled at higher strength it can be safely used too. Have you ever bought a dry battery from the auto parts store that came with a separate bag of acid? Haven't actually seen that for a while but if you felt you could handle that then you should be OK with the phosphoric.

 

[millhouse9]

Yes, but you will likely begin to taste it. And you may not like it. Phosphoric Acid contributes right close to nothing to flavor.

Try it once or twice, and if the flavor alteration does not disagree with you, then continue using acidulated malt.

Thank you for that point - I was wondering about that. Sounds like Phosphoric Acid is the way to go.

I did have another question about my report. The report lists Alkalinity like I mentioned before with the range of 229-258. It also lists hardness as 8-12 gpg. Is this hardness listing useful to me? The reason I ask is because I'm using Bru'n Water's Alkalinity Conversion Calculator and it asks for Total Alkalinity or Temporary Hardness.

Your caution is laudable. Phosphoric acid is sold in 10% strength at wine making and HB suppliers. At that strength it is pretty harmless (but don't gargle it, use it as eyewash etc IOW use common sense). Properly handled at higher strength it can be safely used too. Have you ever bought a dry battery from the auto parts store that came with a separate bag of acid? Haven't actually seen that for a while but if you felt you could handle that then you should be OK with the phosphoric.

Thanks for the encouragement. Sounds like something I can handle.

 

[millhouse9]

I tried all three of my LHBS today and none of them carry phosphoric acid. Most of the workers were confused as to why I wanted it and one even offered me Star San instead...I did pick up 4oz of Lactic Acid though. Should that suffice until I get my hands on some phosphoric? What have you all experienced with Lactic Acid?

 

[ajdelange]

Well StarSan does contain phosphoric acid. But also detergent so you don't want that.

You might try someone who supplies vintners. They use it to titrate something - don't recall what.

Yes, lactic will be fine and is used by many, many home brewers with success.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

85% Phosphoric Acid, food grade: http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=FGphos