Water Adjustment Help

[andy6026]

Can someone please advise me on how to adjust my tap water (aside from campden tablets) for the following two recipes please? Every time I try to read up on understanding water reports and water adjustments I go cross-eyed and re-read the same thing a million times without understanding it. I thank you ever so much for helping out.

Water report:
https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/915c-Drinking-Water-Analysis-2017-AODA.pdf

recipe #1:
-------------------------
Bob's Bitter: English Bitter
Ingredients for 10 U.S. gallons (22.7 liters)

14 lbs two-row pale malt
2.0 lbs amber malt
1.0 lbs 55° L crystal malt
0.5 lbs Special B malt

2 oz Goldings whole hops, 4.75% alpha acid (60 min.)
2 oz Fuggles whole hops, 5% alpha acid (60 min.)
2 oz Goldings whole hops, 4.75% alpha acid (40 min.)
2 oz Fuggles whole hops, 5% alpha acid (40 min.)
2 oz (Goldings whole hops, 4.75% alpha acid (15 min.)
2 oz Fuggles whole hops, 5% alpha acid (15 min.)
2 oz Goldings whole hops, 4.75% alpha acid (5 min.)
2 oz Fuggles whole hops, 5% alpha acid (5 min.)

Wyeast No. 1099 Whitbread ale yeast

Original Specific Gravity: 1.040
Final Specific Gravity: 1.010
Boiling Time: 60 minutes

---------------------------------

recipe #2:
Miss Vickie, Blonde Ale

9.0 lb (4.08 kg) Crisp pale malt
7.0 lb (3.18 kg) Great Western pale malt
1.0 lb (0.45 kg) Pils malt
1.0 lb (0.45 kg) white wheat malt
1.0 lb (0.45 kg) Munich malt
1.25 oz (35 g) Cascade hops (60 min)
2.0 oz (57 g) Saaz hops (15 min)

Wyeast 1968 London ESB ale yeast

Originial Specific Gravity: 1.055
Final Specific Gravity: 1.008
Boiling Time: 60 minutes

Mash grains at 150° F (66° C) for 60 minutes.

Mash grains at 150° F (66° C) for 60 minutes.

 

[mabrungard]

I'm not going to evaluate your water for you, but I see that you're in Toronto and I'm guessing that the water source is Lake O. Great Lakes water is typically pretty for brewing, but adjustment is necessary. More than likely, some level of acidification will be needed for those grists.

 

[Abrayton]

Every time I try to read up on understanding water reports and water adjustments I go cross-eyed

I’ve struggled with this too. Have you tried punching your water report info into brunwater?

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

 

[andy6026]

Thanks for the input guys... I'll check out Brunwater and hopefully get a better grasp of water chemistry.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

It's not hard. I found a water report online as well, and put the beginning numbers into the water spreadsheets. There's several good ones out there. Then you can easily play around with additions to hit whatever mineral levels you want.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

I’m piggy backin this thread since it’s the same topic, I was going to use RO, CF, UV, filtered water I can get at food lion from a vending machine, isn’t this good?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

The relevant information in your report is:
pH: 7.6 (not highly important though)
Alkalinity: 90mg/L
Calcium: 37mg/L
Chloride: 27mg/L
Magnesium: 9mg/L
Sodium: 14mg/L
Sulphate: 26mg/L

Your water will work fine for both beers without adding any extra salts, but you might choose to add some Gypsum (Calcium and Sulphate) for the bitter, and Calcium chloride for the blonde. Or a combination. It's up to you.
You will need to add acid to both to get a suitable mash pH.
Choose a water calculator. I'd recommend Brun Water or Mash Made Easy, because the writers of both (Martin, posted above, for Brun Water and Larry (aka Silver is Money) for Mash Made Easy) will help you on this forum if you need it. I've also found both to be more accurate than some other calculators.
Input your water and grain bill, then add any salt additions that you want, then work out how much acid you need to get to 5.4pH.

 

[couchsending]

I’d just use some acid to get you pH in range and make the beer. Then make the same beer again and add either gypsum or CaCl and compare. You water is great other than the alkalinity being a touch high for pale beers.

 

[andy6026]

It's not hard. I found a water report online as well, and put the beginning numbers into the water spreadsheets. There's several good ones out there. Then you can easily play around with additions to hit whatever mineral levels you want.

The difficulty is that I have no idea what mineral levels I want to hit, or why...

 

[VirginiaHops1]

The difficulty is that I have no idea what mineral levels I want to hit, or why...

Gypsum and CaCl is all I mess around with. Generally higher sulfate levels make the beer taste drier, accentuate hops, accentuate bitterness. Higher CaCl(calcium chloride) will decrease bitterness, increase mouthfeel somewhat. In NEIPA recipes the CaCl level is usually high. Those are the two additions people generally focus the most on. I'm by no means an expert, and am still playing around with different water profiles myself to figure out what works and what doesn't. If you read threads in the recipe section sometimes people will discuss what water profiles they used with their recipes.

 

[Abrayton]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/

This is a good thread if you haven’t found it yet.

 

[couchsending]

Gypsum and CaCl is all I mess around with. Generally higher sulfate levels make the beer taste drier, accentuate hops, accentuate bitterness. Higher CaCl(calcium chloride) will decrease bitterness, increase mouthfeel somewhat. In NEIPA recipes the CaCl level is usually high. Those are the two additions people generally focus the most on. I'm by no means an expert, and am still playing around with different water profiles myself to figure out what works and what doesn't. If you read threads in the recipe section sometimes people will discuss what water profiles they used with their recipes.

Sorry to be a dick but I wholeheartedly disagree with this. And I think it’s one of the biggest misconceptions about this style. CaCl increases bitterness as well. Cl in the presence of high Ca levels creates astringency and that chalky like mouthfeel. From my research the two breweries that make the best beers in terms of mouthfeel for this style use more Gypsum than CaCl. They might have higher CL levels but the Cl comes from either KCl or NaCl.

Everyone focuses on CaCl and Gypsum but there are definitely other salts that play a rather significant impact.

OP: water is not that hard. Really I’m not that bright and terrible at math and most engineering related things. There are a few simple principles to follow and then you can experiment from there to see what you like.

Get one of the many water programs out there. Plug in your numbers and go from there. Get a gram scale for cheap on Amazon. The programs pretty much tell you exactly what to add. Spend a little money on a decent pH meter and google exactly how to use, calibrate, and store it.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Sorry to be a dick but I wholeheartedly disagree with this. And I think it’s one of the biggest misconceptions about this style. CaCl increases bitterness as well. Cl in the presence of high Ca levels creates astringency and that chalky like mouthfeel. From my research the two breweries that make the best beers in terms of mouthfeel for this style use more Gypsum than CaCl. They might have higher CL levels but the Cl comes from either KCl or NaCl.

Everyone focuses on CaCl and Gypsum but there are definitely other salts that play a rather significant impact.

OP: water is not that hard. Really I’m not that bright and terrible at math and most engineering related things. There are a few simple principles to follow and then you can experiment from there to see what you like.

Get one of the many water programs out there. Plug in your numbers and go from there. Get a gram scale for cheap on Amazon. The programs pretty much tell you exactly what to add. Spend a little money on a decent pH meter and google exactly how to use, calibrate, and store it.

You're not a dick for disagreeing with me.

Yeah beers can still be bitter with CaCl with enough IBUs - I wasn't implying CaCl eliminates bitterness, but it makes the bitterness softer/less harsh right? There's a reason most NEIPA recipes I've seen have high CaCl levels. You may be right and they're doing it wrong. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word mouthfeel, because that probably comes more from the extra proteins(e.g. mashing higher, using adjuncts) than water profile but they work together for some styles.

I have Epsom salt too but tend to not use it as much, because I'm wary about raising my Mg levels too high. Like I said I'm still experimenting myself and trying to figure out what works best for my recipes.

 

[couchsending]

You're not a dick for disagreeing with me.

Yeah beers can still be bitter with CaCl with enough IBUs - I wasn't implying CaCl eliminates bitterness, but it makes the bitterness softer/less harsh right? There's a reason most NEIPA recipes I've seen have high CaCl levels. You may be right and they're doing it wrong. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word mouthfeel, because that probably comes more from the extra proteins(e.g. mashing higher, using adjuncts) than water profile but they work together for some styles.

I have Epsom salt too but tend to not use it as much, because I'm wary about raising my Mg levels too high. Like I said I'm still experimenting myself and trying to figure out what works best for my recipes.

My “theory” that seems to somewhat correlate with the beers I’ve had analyzed is that if you want a “softer” beer use less calcium but push the So4 and CL levels higher with salts that don’t also come with Ca. (Mgso4, KCl, NaCl for instance). I rarely use much CaCl in hoppy beers. Like I said high amounts of that salt give an astringent chalky mouthfeel that’s just not pleasant. That’s found in so many Homebrew and commercial examples of the style, but isn’t found in the beers brewed by the top tier breweries. You want a fuller softer mouthfeel use some Nacl instead. I think you’ll be amazed at the results. Also if you’re brewing a beer with little IBUs and a higher FG Gypsum is your friend. It helps to lighten the pallet so the beer doesn’t come across as thick and sweet. Again a horrible attribute that people think is key for this style.

 

[thehaze]

Regarding what couchsending is saying about high levels of Ca: I've noticed the same thing in my own brews. I then emailed Cloudwater UK and the reply was:

" We definitely found chalkiness with too high Ca additions. In our IPAs we now use a blend of Calcium, magnesium and potassium chlorides to up the chloride without too much Ca, and also get extra body from magnesium and potassium.

I'd suggest aiming for around 30ppm Mg, 50ppm K, 60-70 ppm Ca, which should give you around 150-200ppm chlorides. "

Starting from this reply I brewed an IPA ( not a hazy, juicy one, just a regular one ) with the following mash water profile

Ca: 55 ppm / Mg: 10 ppm / Na: 35 ppm / Cl: 140 / SO4: 70 using a combination of CaCl2, Gypsum, Epsom, KCl and NaCl.

I haven't tasted it yet, but will soon and post some tasting notes.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

My “theory” that seems to somewhat correlate with the beers I’ve had analyzed is that if you want a “softer” beer use less calcium but push the So4 and CL levels higher with salts that don’t also come with Ca. (Mgso4, KCl, NaCl for instance). I rarely use much CaCl in hoppy beers. Like I said high amounts of that salt give an astringent chalky mouthfeel that’s just not pleasant. That’s found in so many Homebrew and commercial examples of the style, but isn’t found in the beers brewed by the top tier breweries. You want a fuller softer mouthfeel use some Nacl instead. I think you’ll be amazed at the results. Also if you’re brewing a beer with little IBUs and a higher FG Gypsum is your friend. It helps to lighten the pallet so the beer doesn’t come across as thick and sweet. Again a horrible attribute that people think is key for this style.

Taste is subjective, what you think is horrible some may think is delicious which may be why some people may tout certain water profiles with their recipes but you find success with different ones. Brewing water science is extremely complex, coupled with everyone's sense of taste being different makes it really hard to put out water profiles that are the end all/be all for beer styles. The best thing to do IMO is just play around with it, take extensive notes while brewing and tasting, and try to figure out what works best for you and your system.

Trying to understand the science behind it is fascinating, and confusing. I've read Ca is good for the mash efficiency, and also your protein break during boil, and you lose a lot of it in the mash. I've read half is lost. So even if your Ca level gets up to 100 pre-mash due to other additions it won't be that high in your final beer. I'm not sure what Ca levels you deem as too high that can cause astringency as you haven't listen any ppm numbers. I've never experienced chalky mouthfeel but I've also never gone far above 100ppm Ca in my beers thus far.

 

[thehaze]

Just to add a bit more to my previous reply: I experienced chalkiness when Ca and Cl levels were high. I don't really get the same when Ca is high-ish, Cl is low and high SO4, although very high S04 is also not my thing. Like them in the 130-175 ppm range.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I did a zombie dust clone several months ago. It was definitely one of the best beers I've done thus far. Water profile for that one below. No chalkiness. IBU was calc'ed at 86 but didn't come across as extremely bitter either. It had a decent malt backbone so some of that sweetness probably offset the bitterness. IBUs vs perceived bitterness is another rabbit hole you can waste days on.

Ca - 113
Mg - 8
Na - 14
Cl - 67
SO4 - 164

 

[couchsending]

The chalkines/astringency is with high Cl levels in the presence of higher Ca levels. Generally you get that when you add lots of CaCl. I’m talking Cl levels over 150 and Ca over 100. I’m on maybe close to 125 hoppy beers all with water built from scratch and testing all sorts of different salt profiles.

I found some of the most useful water info in Noonan's books, Brewing Lager Beer and New Brewing Lager beer. Here's a quote from New Brewing in regards to Cl

" It accentuates bitterness but also increases mellowness; it increases the stability of any solution and improves clarity. The "salt" taste of chloride generally enhances beer flavor and palate fullness, but the salt flavor is reduced by the presence of Ca and Mg."

There is an awesome post on Probrewer in 2009 quoting all sorts of brewing textbooks on how the amount of Ca can change throughout the process. the whole thread is great but
towards the bottom there is a post by IPSCMAN that's gold. I highly suggest it:

https://discussions.probrewer.com/archive/index.php/t-15069.html

There's also a great MBAA podcast from last year I think with one of the brewers from Ballast Point discussing the ion content that malt provides and how those
amounts change throughout the brewing process. I highly recommend that. In summary it's as follows:

10 Plato Wort of just Base Malt contributes roughly:
Ca - 25ppm
Cl - 200 ppm
So4 - 50-100 ppm depending on malt
Mg - 70 ppm
Na - 20-40 ppm

S04 increases during the boil, decreases during fermentation (this might have been from a yeast nutrient addition, they weren't 100% sure. not a huge increase)
Ca decreases during the mash but stays consistent through boil and fermentation
Mg - Consistent through the process
Cl - Increases during the boil, increases through fermentation (might be from hops, they weren't sure)
Na - Stays consistent through the process

There are also other studies I've read that show these mineral contributions from malt

12 Plato Wort
Mg 106ppm
Ca 35 ppm

20 Plato Wort
Mg - 144 ppm
Ca - 57 ppm

 

[couchsending]

I did a zombie dust clone several months ago. It was definitely one of the best beers I've done thus far. Water profile for that one below. No chalkiness. IBU was calc'ed at 86 but didn't come across as extremely bitter either. It had a decent malt backbone so some of that sweetness probably offset the bitterness. IBUs vs perceived bitterness is another rabbit hole you can waste days on.

Ca - 113
Mg - 8
Na - 14
Cl - 67
SO4 - 164

That's a great hoppy beer profile.

I would say if you flipped those Cl and So4 numbers the beer might start to get a little chalky/astringent/minerally.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

That's a great hoppy beer profile.

I would say if you flipped those Cl and So4 numbers the beer might start to get a little chalky/astringent/minerally.

Well I just did a pretty hoppy beer last weekend where I flipped it, to some extent, to see the effects. Should be interesting

Ca - 103
Cl - 103
SO4 - 93

 

[couchsending]

It’s when you go over 150ppm Cl and 100 Ca that I think it starts to become more noticeable but that depends on where you add the salts and how much Alkalinity you have in your water. This determines how much Ca makes it irk the final beer. I don’t add any salts to sparge water but take those amounts and add them to the boil to try to ensure more Ca makes it into the FV.

 

[balrog]

From a simpler point of view, OP, have you taken a look at the simplified water chemistry primer here?