Trying to clone a local ESB - need advice

[J2W2]

Hi,

I am trying to create a clone for Empyrean Brewing’s Luna Sea ESB, brewed here locally. Their website says “Extra Special Bitter is our homage to the best of English beers. Brewed with imported English malts for a bold, caramel-sweet, yet crisp ale.” It has an IBU of 31, ABV of 6.3%, an OG of 14.5 and a balanced flavor category. They use 2-Row, Biscuit, Caramel 60 and Aromatic malts, with Galena and Cluster hops.

I don’t really know how to describe this beer properly – I just know I like it – so I’ve included a couple of reviews from Beer Advocate:

The beer pours an amber copper color with a white head that turns into a wisp with good lacing. The aroma is hoppy, then sweet caramel and crackers come in. The beer tastes really well balanced. Warm sweet malts bring in caramel before giving way to a clean, dry hop bite. There's a nice bready, cracker heartiness in here too. The mouthfeel is medium bodied and clean.

Poured out a clear, copper color with a one-finger, white head of foam. It left sudsy trails of lace on the glass. It smelled earthy and spicy. Some caramel and toffee aromas, too. It had a nice spicy bite upfront with some earthy tones. Some caramel maltiness and toffee sweetness. It was crisp, sharp and smooth. A medium bodied ale with a dry, clean finish.

I’m an extract brewer, and I’m thinking about using 6.3lbs of Marris Otter LME with 2lbs of Golden Light DME. This only shows an estimated ABV of 5.4%, but my last clone attempts have gone over on the ABV, so I’m hoping to hit at least 6%. I just added 1lb each of Aromatic, Biscuit and Crystal 60 to get started – I’m sure that is not the proper ratio. I’ve also put in 1/2oz Cluster for the full 60-minute boil, and 1/2oz Galena for the last 20 minutes, which gives an IBU of 31.4. The estimated color is 14.6 SRM – I’m not sure where that puts me on an amber/copper color.

I’ve attached a screenshot of this recipe from BeerSmith – I’d appreciate any input on how to adjust it, particularly in the specialty grains to hit the profiles from Beer Advocate (or your own experience if you've had a chance to taste this beer).

Thank you very much for your help!

 

[DromJohn]

Try flipping the hops:
0.5 oz Galena 60 min
0.5 oz Cluster at 15 min
0.5 oz Cluster at 5 min ("The aroma is hoppy")

 

[J2W2]

Try flipping the hops:
0.5 oz Galena 60 min
0.5 oz Cluster at 15 min
0.5 oz Cluster at 5 min ("The aroma is hoppy")

Thanks for the suggestion! That puts me a little over my IBU target; I dropped each addition to 0.4 oz and it puts me right on 31 IBU.

BeerSmith offers the following on the three specialty grains:

Aromatic - Provides a very strong malt flavor and aroma - so I'm wondering if I should taper that one back.

Biscuit - Adds a biscuit like flavor and aroma - many of the Beer Advocate reviews mention biscuit, bread, cracker, toasted flavors.

Caramel/Crystal 60 - Adds body, color and improves head retention - many reviews mention sweet caramel and toffee flavors.

So, I'm thinking maybe more Biscuit and Crystal 60, and a little less Aromatic? Can anyone suggest some target percentages toward the overall grain bill for these three? I'm pretty much flying blind on that, but I'm pretty sure a pound of each would be too much for a 5-gallon batch.

Thanks again for your help!

 

[JKaranka]

Use only a few ounces of Biscuit and Aromatic. Those are both very pungent malts (we don't use them much at all in Britain). I would probably start with 4oz of each, and then keep the pound of Medium Crystal. If the SRM prediction seems low, increase the crystal malt to adjust for colour. 14-16SRM would be about right.

 

[Spyk'd]

I agree to cut down the aromatic and biscuit malts, but you could also change them to English malts that share the same character:

Aromatic = Optic
Biscuit = Pearl

I'd go with 8oz of each. I think the Crystal looks fine.


Good luck!

 

[JKaranka]

Optic and Pearl are varieties of barley that are made into base malts, though! You could use Amber malt instead of both the Biscuit and the Aromatic but your local brewery definitively won't be using it.

 

[rmyurick]

Agree with posts 2 & 4, but would also probably cut the crystal to 8or 12 oz. I wouldn't worry about cutting the hops down to 0.4 Oz. from 0.5.

 

[mrdail87]

+1 to cutting back the aromatic malt. I used 8 oz in a nut brown ale, and it was almost too overpowering. It has a bit of a sharp/tart flavor by itself. It's not so malty, but it helps accentuate malt flavors.

 

[J2W2]

Thanks for all the great advice. I think I'll try taking the Aromatic and Biscuit down to 4 oz, and put the Crystal 60 at 12 oz. That gives me a SRM of around 11.

I'll have to play with it a little more, but this gives me a lot to go on.

Thanks again!

 

[J2W2]

Sorry to keep hammering on this recipe, but I'm hoping for a little more advice.

I contacted Empyrean Brewing and asked for advice on my recipe. They confirmed I have the same grains they use, but they would not elaborate any more on that. They did confirm that they use Galena for bittering and a late addition of Cluster for aroma, so I'll stick with DromJohn's advice on that.

I've reviewed a number of ESB recipes off the Internet. There are a lot out there, but unfortunately most don't have any kind of rating so I can't be sure if they are good or not. And while most use one or two of my specialty grains, none use the three I will be.

I noticed many of them use a fair amount of Crystal (usually 60 or 40), generally 12 to 16 oz. I also noticed that many of those used an equal amount of one or more other specialty grains that usually matched the amount of Crystal used. Most of the recipes that use Aromatic seem to hang around the 4 oz mark, so I think I'm good there.

My main question is can I use 8 oz of Biscuit or will that be too much? That would give me a combined 12 oz of Aromatic and Biscuit to match the 12 oz of Crystal 60. I saw a couple ESB recipes that used as much as a pound of Biscuit (or Victory which I believe is close to Biscuit) with a pound of Crystal.

Thanks again for your help!

 

[JKaranka]

Have you checked any British strong bitter recipes? They tend to have very few speciality malts. Usually crystal or amber malt, sometimes a form of adjunct or sugar, sometimes a malt for colour correction, sometimes brewers' for colour correction.

 

[J2W2]

Have you checked any British strong bitter recipes? They tend to have very few speciality malts. Usually crystal or amber malt, sometimes a form of adjunct or sugar, sometimes a malt for colour correction, sometimes brewers' for colour correction.

That's what I had in my last post - I've looked at a number of them. None use the exact specialty grains the beer I'm trying to clone does, but most seem to use Crystal as one, and usually an equal amount of one or two others. That's why I'm wondering if 8 oz Biscuit with 4 oz Aromatic and 12 oz Crystal 60 seems reasonable.

Thanks!

 

[BlackFurnaceBrewing]

The real question is what are they using for yeast.

 

[JKaranka]

The real question is what are they using for yeast.

Lots of British brewery yeasts are available plus man many breweries use those same yeasts. WLP002, Nottingham, etc.

Check out clones for Fullers ESB, Shepherd Neame Spitfire, etc.

 

[BlackFurnaceBrewing]

Lots of British brewery yeasts are available plus man many breweries use those same yeasts. WLP002, Nottingham, etc.

Check out clones for Fullers ESB, Shepherd Neame Spitfire, etc.

Sorry, JK, my question was intended to be rhetorical. From the way the thread has been going, I think the "grain bill" and hop schedule are close enough. For this style of beer (and cloning in general), I tend to focus on yeast selection, hot and cold side temps just as much malt and hop selection. I did not see that addressed, yet.

 

[J2W2]

Sorry, JK, my question was intended to be rhetorical. From the way the thread has been going, I think the "grain bill" and hop schedule are close enough. For this style of beer (and cloning in general), I tend to focus on yeast selection, hot and cold side temps just as much malt and hop selection. I did not see that addressed, yet.

I'm planning to use Wyeast 1968 - London ESB Ale. I'd also considered White Labs WLP002 - English Ale.

 

[BlackFurnaceBrewing]

I'm planning to use Wyeast 1968 - London ESB Ale. I'd also considered White Labs WLP002 - English Ale.

Since they describe it as a "crisp" ale, you may also want to consider WLP007. It is similar to WLP002, but will attenuate a bit more and give you a dryer finish. Since you are an extract brewer, you will be more dependent on the yeast for the beer's "character" i.e. malty vs dry.

 

[JKaranka]

Nottingham is also a good choice for crisp and dry. It also does a good job at chewing through extract but if brewing with LME I'd personally add some sugar also (5%).

 

[J2W2]

Since they describe it as a "crisp" ale, you may also want to consider WLP007. It is similar to WLP002, but will attenuate a bit more and give you a dryer finish. Since you are an extract brewer, you will be more dependent on the yeast for the beer's "character" i.e. malty vs dry.

According to their websites, it looks like the Wyeast 1968 has a little higher attenuation than the WLP007 does. Beer Smith seems to agree, as it shows 0.2% more ABV in my recipe by using the 1968. Although I came across another post that said they are pretty much interchangeable because they are both made from the same strain of Fuller's yeast.

I ordered my supplies a couple days ago, and went with the Wyeast 1968. Now I'll just have to wait and see what I come up with!

Thanks again to everyone for all the great help!

 

[JKaranka]

Even if it's not a clone you'll end up with drinkable beer

 

[BlackFurnaceBrewing]

According to their websites, it looks like the Wyeast 1968 has a little higher attenuation than the WLP007 does. Beer Smith seems to agree, as it shows 0.2% more ABV in my recipe by using the 1968. Although I came across another post that said they are pretty much interchangeable because they are both made from the same strain of Fuller's yeast.

I ordered my supplies a couple days ago, and went with the Wyeast 1968. Now I'll just have to wait and see what I come up with!

Thanks again to everyone for all the great help!

Let us know how it turns out.

 

[rmyurick]

According to their websites, it looks like the Wyeast 1968 has a little higher attenuation than the WLP007 does. Beer Smith seems to agree, as it shows 0.2% more ABV in my recipe by using the 1968. Although I came across another post that said they are pretty much interchangeable because they are both made from the same strain of Fuller's yeast.

I ordered my supplies a couple days ago, and went with the Wyeast 1968. Now I'll just have to wait and see what I come up with!

Thanks again to everyone for all the great help!

Maybe you meant "than the WLP002 does"? WLP002 and 1968 are understood to be the same yeast variety (Fuller's). WLP007 is understood to be a Whitbread strain and is more attenuative.

 

[J2W2]

Maybe you meant "than the WLP002 does"? WLP002 and 1968 are understood to be the same yeast variety (Fuller's). WLP007 is understood to be a Whitbread strain and is more attenuative.

You are correct, I meant WLP002 - that was a typo on my part.