Trouble with Starters

[Pancoastbrewing]

I recently got into doing starters for all my 5 gallon batches. So far I’ve done 3, 1 Ale and 2 lagers. Had no issue with the Ale, but had to dump the first lager (a maibock) due to not pitching enough yeast and I’m afraid I’ve done the same thing with this most recent lager (OG:1.054 FG:1.013). I took a hydrometer reading today (8 days post brew) and it was sitting at 1.030.

I’ll try to explain in short detail the process I’ve been using with lager starters and maybe someone here could point out what Im doing wrong.

I did a 2L starter wth 200 g DME. Pitched 2 smack packs of wyeast octoberfest blend 2633 two days before brewing. The packs were fresh, produced this April. I used agitation as the oxygen source. Stored the starter at 70 degrees and it reached high krausen 24 hours post pitching. I didn’t want to pitch the entire 2L starter, it just seems like a lot to add a half gallon of starter wort to a 5 gal batch, so I put the starter in the fridge overnight so that I could decant off some of the starter. It was in there 18 hours before pitching. I took the starter out of the fridge and decanted about 1200ml of the starter, then agitated and pitched the rest into the cooled (upper 50s) wort.

The fermentation was going pretty normal, but seemed to hit a wall within the last few days. I’ve had the fermentor set at 52 for the duration of the ferment. Like I said, I was at a shade under 1.030 today so I raised the temp up to 55. The fermentation isn’t stuck, it’s still bubbling, but I figured it would be much lower than 1.030.

Where am I going wrong with this? Is two packs of fresh wyeast too much to add? That’s really the only place I can figure I’m screwing up. That or maybe my temp swings are too much? Or did I dump a bunch of yeast when I decanted? I’ve done probably 30 brews or so over the past few years so I can’t understand why I’m having such an issue with starters. I never had an issue with sluggish ferments before I did starters. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[mongoose33]

Two things come to mind. One is the "agitation" for the oxygenating the wort. Did you use a stir plate or just shake the flask a bit to oxygenate the starter wort?

The other is the temp difference from the starter to the wort. Your refrigerator is probably....38 degrees or so? You pulled out the starter, decanted, then pitched that into wort that was 20 degrees colder. I always like to pitch yeast that is about the same temp as the wort so as not to stress out the yeast.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Two things come to mind. One is the "agitation" for the oxygenating the wort. Did you use a stir plate or just shake the flask a bit to oxygenate the starter wort?

The other is the temp difference from the starter to the wort. Your refrigerator is probably....38 degrees or so? You pulled out the starter, decanted, then pitched that into wort that was 20 degrees colder. I always like to pitch yeast that is about the same temp as the wort so as not to stress out the yeast.

I gave the flask a good shake probably 4-5 times throughout the starter fermentation. It was definitely going strong in the flask. Lots of activity (could see bubbles moving rapidly), and even th krausen was bubbling. It seemed pretty healthy in the flask.

As far as temps, I guess it’s possible that I sent them into shock by going from room temp to fridge temp, but wouldn’t that just make them go dormant? I assume going from fridge temp to the actual wort temp (upper 50’s) would sort of rouse the yeast wouldn’t it?

I’m just wondering if anyone else uses two packs of yeast for a starter. Maybe it’s too much?

 

[waldoar15]

You're probably not getting much yeast growth by pitching two packs into 2L of wort.

Taking it at high krausen and sticking it in the fridge then decanting probably didn't help either. Should have left it finish first or pitched it all at high krausen.

I brew mostly lagers and haven't had a problem with them stalling. When I start with a fresh pack of yeast I usually step the starter from 2L into a 4l, let it finish, crash,then decant/pitch. Other times I pitch fresh slurry (if I have it).

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

You're probably not getting much yeast growth by pitching two packs into 2L of wort.

Taking it at high krausen and sticking it in the fridge then decanting probably didn't help either. Should have left it finish first or pitched it all at high krausen.

I brew mostly lagers and haven't had a problem with them stalling. When I start with a fresh pack of yeast I usually step the starter from 2L into a 4l, let it finish, crash,then decant/pitch. Other times I pitch fresh slurry (if I have it).

I should clarify, I did wait for the krausen to drop before placing in the fridge.

I may just be overloading with 2 packs, depleting the wort sugars too quickly.

 

[ESBrewer]

There could be other reasons to why your lager does not ferment further. Amount/health of yeast is just one of the possibilities. Fermentability of the wort IS another. If you have more yeast you could do something called a fast ferment test with a small sample of the wort/beer.

 

[waldoar15]

As stated above, grain bill and mash temps would help. But I wouldn't get too excited about it 8 days into a lager fermentation. I wouldn't bother unless you're trying to do the quick lager fermentation schedule.

I do use a good shot of pure O2 before pitching though.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Your starter is not large enough to build the required cell count for a lager. A 2l starter at 1.036 and one pack will yield 140b cells.
2l with two packs of fresh yeast will yield 196b cells.

You can do multiple steps to increase cell counts. Brewers friend says you need 3 steps to build enough yeast without a stir plate.

There are a few ways to skin the cat. You can get a stir plate , increase your starter volume size, pitch more yeast or do multiple steps in the smaller vessel or a combo of all of the above. You can also make a batch and pitch on top of the old cake.

Your basically making a smaller than required starter and then your putting your yeast through another lag and growth phase in your batch of beer. It will eventually grow enough to finish fermentation but may not be the best way to manage a quick clean lager fermentation. Keep in mind lagers are fermented colder and that will slow the yeast metabolism down and lengthen your fermentation times. By under pitching your also extending the overall timeline.

The best bet is to pitch sufficient yeast cell counts based on the OG of the beer.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Your starter is not large enough to build the required cell count for a lager. A 2l starter at 1.036 and one pack will yield 140b cells.
2l with two packs of fresh yeast will yield 196b cells.

You can do multiple steps to increase cell counts. Brewers friend says you need 3 steps to build enough yeast without a stir plate.

There are a few ways to skin the cat. You can get a stir plate , increase your starter volume size, pitch more yeast or do multiple steps in the smaller vessel or a combo of all of the above. You can also make a batch and pitch on top of the old cake.

Your basically making a smaller than required starter and then your putting your yeast through another lag and growth phase in your batch of beer. It will eventually grow enough to finish fermentation but may not be the best way to manage a quick clean lager fermentation. Keep in mind lagers are fermented colder and that will slow the yeast metabolism down and lengthen your fermentation times. By under pitching your also extending the overall timeline.

The best bet is to pitch sufficient yeast cell counts based on the OG of the beer.

Would using a stir plate be enough to avoid having to do the extra starter steps? I have a difficult time planning out a brew day a week in advance, I usually only know a few days in advance if I can brew.

If not using a stir plate, would you just suggest putting one yeast pack in a 1L starter and building up from there? Or 2 packs in 2L? And if using a multi step starter, how do you go about avoiding having to throw a half gallon or more starter wort into the batch?

I have to be honest, all of these starter steps seem to be a big PITA. It’s almost worth the extra bucks to just buy more yeast packs. I hate having to ditch a whole brew because I didn’t make a big enough starter.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

There could be other reasons to why your lager does not ferment further. Amount/health of yeast is just one of the possibilities. Fermentability of the wort IS another. If you have more yeast you could do something called a fast ferment test with a small sample of the wort/beer.

I haven’t had any issues with wort fermentability in all my time brewing. I take gravity readings pre and post boil and haven’t noticed any issues with fermentability.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

As stated above, grain bill and mash temps would help. But I wouldn't get too excited about it 8 days into a lager fermentation. I wouldn't bother unless you're trying to do the quick lager fermentation schedule.

I do use a good shot of pure O2 before pitching though.

I’m all malt, very low on speciality malts. Maybe 10% of a light caramel, that’s pretty much it.

8 days is still kind of early for a lager, I did raise the temp yesterday, hopefully in a few days it can get closer to FG

 

[Dcpcooks]

More wort is better for growth than more yeast. See the attached chart to see how much yeast to pitch to hit target growth.

A stir plate makes a huge difference in the process. So does a larger vessel. You can always buy more yeast. Four dry packs probably have been enough without any starter. So maybe you want to keep extra dry yeast on hand for times when you don’t have time to make a big enough starter. Each step in the starter is a chance for contamination to enter, so that’s a slight concern.

I use a 5l flask and a stir plate. Plenty of room to grow up a culture in one batch and then just crash it and pour off the spent wort keeping the yeast.

Your current beer will finish fermenting. It may not be as clean and crisp as it could have been but it will be beer. Also you may not have any side effects. I prefer to take the time to make a big starter for lagers. It’s gonna take a while to finish and I want it to have the best chance for success but if I was short on time I’d just buy more yeast and skip the starter.

From “Yeast” by C White

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

More wort is better for growth than more yeast. See the attached chart to see how much yeast to pitch to hit target growth.

A stir plate makes a huge difference in the process. So does a larger vessel. You can always buy more yeast. Four dry packs probably have been enough without any starter. So maybe you want to keep extra dry yeast on hand for times when you don’t have time to make a big enough starter. Each step in the starter is a chance for contamination to enter, so that’s a slight concern.

I use a 5l flask and a stir plate. Plenty of room to grow up a culture in one batch and then just crash it and pour off the spent wort keeping the yeast.

Your current beer will finish fermenting. It may not be as clean and crisp as it could have been but it will be beer. Also you may not have any side effects. I prefer to take the time to make a big starter for lagers. It’s gonna take a while to finish and I want it to have the best chance for success but if I was short on time I’d just buy more yeast and skip the starter.


View attachment 572490

From “Yeast” by C White

Lots of great info here, thanks. If I’m reading that chart, are the ‘s 2’s and 3’s packets of yeast I need to add to the starter size?

 

[Dcpcooks]

Yes those numbers represent packs of wl001. The chart is based on a 1.040 wort@70F. No stir plate or o2 was used. Each pack is 100b of liquid yeast fresh. The left axis is desired pitch target, the top is liters of starter wort.

Pitch rates vary for lots of reasons so you should use some form of brewing software to dial in your numbers. Lagers and High og beers need way more yeast in general.

Dry yeast is another calculation and you will not use a starter. But you can add an extra pack of dry yeast above what’s called for in the chart. I just plus one and rehydrate. Unless I’m over 1.100 then I add +2 packs.

If your clean and sani you can make a starter 5-10 days in advance. I have done that for a few years without issue. Then chill and let the yeast settle, decant and pitch. Starter wort tastes like crap and I don’t want it in my beer so I decant it.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Yes those numbers represent packs of wl001. The chart is based on a 1.040 wort@70F. No stir plate or o2 was used. Each pack is 100b of liquid yeast fresh. The left axis is desired pitch target, the top is liters of starter wort.

Pitch rates vary for lots of reasons so you should use some form of brewing software to dial in your numbers. Lagers and High og beers need way more yeast in general.

Dry yeast is another calculation and you will not use a starter. But you can add an extra pack of dry yeast above what’s called for in the chart. I just plus one and rehydrate. Unless I’m over 1.100 then I add +2 packs.

If your clean and sani you can make a starter 5-10 days in advance. I have done that for a few years without issue. Then chill and let the yeast settle, decant and pitch. Starter wort tastes like crap and I don’t want it in my beer so I decant it.

I used to do all my brews with dry yeast. Switched to liquid not long ago, mostly for the variety of strains available, especially for lagers. Definitely much easier to go the dry route, but I feel more like I’m actually brewing with liquid yeasts.

As far as my next lager, I may go the step route, starting with 1 pack in a 1L starter, or maybe just go bigger with something like a 4L starter.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Yes those numbers represent packs of wl001. The chart is based on a 1.040 wort@70F. No stir plate or o2 was used. Each pack is 100b of liquid yeast fresh. The left axis is desired pitch target, the top is liters of starter wort.

Pitch rates vary for lots of reasons so you should use some form of brewing software to dial in your numbers. Lagers and High og beers need way more yeast in general.

Dry yeast is another calculation and you will not use a starter. But you can add an extra pack of dry yeast above what’s called for in the chart. I just plus one and rehydrate. Unless I’m over 1.100 then I add +2 packs.

If your clean and sani you can make a starter 5-10 days in advance. I have done that for a few years without issue. Then chill and let the yeast settle, decant and pitch. Starter wort tastes like crap and I don’t want it in my beer so I decant it.

Also, what’s your method for chilling the starter? Do you wait until the krausen falls and just throw it right in the fridge or so you step cool it? And how long in the fridge? 24 hours?

 

[DurtyChemist]

If you’re just shaking a starter you won’t get anywhere near what a stir plate produces for yeast growth. Also pitching two packs is overkill for a yeast starter.

A stir plate helps a TON and a 5 liter flask works well for 10 gallon batches. A second option is to make a 1 gallon batch of beer and pitch yeast into it. Let it ferment for a week or so, Bottle/keg and use the yeast to ferment your 5 gallon batch. It’s less expensive than buying a stir plate and flask but it takes a week vs 2-3 days.

As for chilling, ideally you’d make a starter Wednesday, chill Friday or Saturday, decant and pitch Sunday. I’ve gone back and forth on decanting and recently started making starters Friday’s, overbuilding and storing 500 mL and pitching the rest Sunday. Just make sure if you store yeast that’s this new to leave the lid loose enough to allow CO2 to escape for a night otherwise it will be under pressure and make a mess when you warm it up and open it.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

I think

If you’re just shaking a starter you won’t get anywhere near what a stir plate produces for yeast growth. Also pitching two packs is overkill for a yeast starter.

A stir plate helps a TON and a 5 liter flask works well for 10 gallon batches. A second option is to make a 1 gallon batch of beer and pitch yeast into it. Let it ferment for a week or so, Bottle/keg and use the yeast to ferment your 5 gallon batch. It’s less expensive than buying a stir plate and flask but it takes a week vs 2-3 days.

As for chilling, ideally you’d make a starter Wednesday, chill Friday or Saturday, decant and pitch Sunday. I’ve gone back and forth on decanting and recently started making starters Friday’s, overbuilding and storing 500 mL and pitching the rest Sunday. Just make sure if you store yeast that’s this new to leave the lid loose enough to allow CO2 to escape for a night otherwise it will be under pressure and make a mess when you warm it up and open it.

I think I’ll just go and buy a stir plate. Seems to be the preferred method. Will probably do a 2L starter with 1 yeast pack, let it ferment out, crash, decent and do another 2L starter. How does that sound?

 

[SunDogBrewing]

I think


I think I’ll just go and buy a stir plate. Seems to be the preferred method. Will probably do a 2L starter with 1 yeast pack, let it ferment out, crash, decent and do another 2L starter. How does that sound?

Yeah, you can do that for sure, lots of people do it that way. Be sure to store your yeast hygienically. Just remember every step you introduce more odds of contamination. I have taken 1 packet of yeast grew it in a 2L starter and then when that was done take a portion of that and grew it to another 2L starter and did that 4 times over. Then used one of the yeast cakes and pitched directy another batch directly on to that. All of the batches turned out very well so it can be done but there is always a risk.....

 

[z-bob]

I think I’ll just go and buy a stir plate. Seems to be the preferred method. Will probably do a 2L starter with 1 yeast pack, let it ferment out, crash, decent and do another 2L starter. How does that sound?

If you’re just shaking a starter you won’t get anywhere near what a stir plate produces for yeast growth. Also pitching two packs is overkill for a yeast starter.

A stir plate helps a TON and a 5 liter flask works well for 10 gallon batches. A second option is to make a 1 gallon batch of beer and pitch yeast into it. Let it ferment for a week or so, Bottle/keg and use the yeast to ferment your 5 gallon batch. It’s less expensive than buying a stir plate and flask but it takes a week vs 2-3 days.

As for chilling, ideally you’d make a starter Wednesday, chill Friday or Saturday, decant and pitch Sunday. I’ve gone back and forth on decanting and recently started making starters Friday’s, overbuilding and storing 500 mL and pitching the rest Sunday. Just make sure if you store yeast that’s this new to leave the lid loose enough to allow CO2 to escape for a night otherwise it will be under pressure and make a mess when you warm it up and open it.

I have a homemade stir plate. It works pretty well. And that's the preferred method here. But you might want to read this thread at the AHA forum: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=24460.0 A gallon jug might make a excellent flask for a 1L starter, and save you the cost of a stirrer.

 

[DurtyChemist]

I think
I think I’ll just go and buy a stir plate. Seems to be the preferred method. Will probably do a 2L starter with 1 yeast pack, let it ferment out, crash, decent and do another 2L starter. How does that sound?

Stir plates are preferred because it’s easy and efficient. Constant aeration will grow WAY more yeast cells. Look into making one from a computer fan and a cigar box. If you know someone getting rid of a desktop take it for the fan, hard drive magnets, and some wires. You can use a growler in the mean time just make sure you swirl it every time you walk past it. Pretty easy and it releases CO2 much more often which keeps it growing.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I used to do all my brews with dry yeast. Switched to liquid not long ago, mostly for the variety of strains available, especially for lagers.

This is part of the problem. Yeast need lipids for cell division, and dry yeasts have really high levels of lipids, enough for ~3 divisions - typically you want 3-4 divisions in the wort. Yeast from a starter don't have those lipid reserves, so need to make lipids in the fermenter, and need oxygen for that. I suspect that you would get along better, and be less critical on the starters, if you were aerating your wort better.

 

[Sparger]

I recommend this calculator to detrrmine your pitch needs
https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
Hint: if you have more than 1 billion cells (say 128B from a previous starter) just input 1.28 packages into the packs/vials section.
If you are making starters anyway, there is no need to purchase two packs.
This is the method I use http://brulosophy.com/methods/yeast-starter-method/
I generally overbuild my starter by 0.8 liters, and pour that into a 0.8 L mason jar, and keep refrigerated for my next brew. Put the date on that so you can use the calculator above. For some reason I get a consistent 128B overbuild with this.
Final tip, if you arent sure whether a starter is still working well (not a lot of kreusen, etc.) after chilling it, before pouring the starter liquid down the drain, take a gravity reading of it. If its low and the yeast smells good, you are probably good to go.