Temps vs. Timers

[racehead]

Hi all - couple of quick questions. Recently installed my 20-gal e-herms setup and loving it - having brewed 3 amazing batches already. That being said, I have a couple of questions related to temps and timers.

First is during my mash. When do you folks start your mash timers? Immediately when you start your circulation? OR After temps stabilize at your ideal mash temp? Example - my HLT is 154, and when I finish my dough-in and start circulating - obviously - my output temp from the mashtun is more like 130 or so until everything heats up. Do you start your timer after temp equalization or at the start of circulation?

Second - when getting ready to mash out and heating up my strike water - do you just leave everything closed off or do you continue circulating as you're heating your strike water towards 170?

THANKS!

 

[augiedoggy]

Hi all - couple of quick questions. Recently installed my 20-gal e-herms setup and loving it - having brewed 3 amazing batches already. That being said, I have a couple of questions related to temps and timers.

First is during my mash. When do you folks start your mash timers? Immediately when you start your circulation? OR After temps stabilize at your ideal mash temp? Example - my HLT is 154, and when I finish my dough-in and start circulating - obviously - my output temp from the mashtun is more like 130 or so until everything heats up. Do you start your timer after temp equalization or at the start of circulation?

Second - when getting ready to mash out and heating up my strike water - do you just leave everything closed off or do you continue circulating as you're heating your strike water towards 170?

THANKS!

most of the conversion is done by the first 15 mins or so. so if your doughing in at 130 your beer is going to be thin as if you mashed at low temps.(This negates the point of a herms really). You need to dial in your strike temps so the mash starts out closer to your goal. (for example I heat my strike water to 160-163 in the winter to achieve a starting temp of 151).

I start right away but my strike temps are close to goal.

Continue recircing while heating... That would be performing the "mashout"

 

[racehead]

Thanks - just to be clear I am doing as you suggest - doughing in with higher than goal temps then lowering the HLT temp as things neutralize - just wanted to see if this is what others' do!

Thanks again!

 

[mongoose33]

most of the conversion is done by the first 15 mins or so. so if your doughing in at 130 your beer is going to be thin as if you mashed at low temps.(This negates the point of a herms really). You need to dial in your strike temps so the mash starts out closer to your goal. (for example I heat my strike water to 160-163 in the winter to achieve a starting temp of 151).

I start right away but my strike temps are close to goal.

Continue recircing while heating... That would be performing the "mashout"

I think that's going to depend on the coarseness of the crush. When I was doing BIAB I set my mill gap at .020. At 15 minutes something like 90 percent of the conversion was complete.

Now I'm back to a wider gap to create larger crush particles. It's slower, signficantly so. It'll get there, it just takes longer to get the starch out into solution where the enzymes can work on it. An hour with this coarseness of crush is what I need.

Now, having said that--as you know, I'm implementing a RIMS system which I haven't used yet. That might, at least I'm hoping, accelerate conversion for me.

 

[racehead]

So while you're heating up your strike water from mash temp to mashout (roughly 169 or so) - is that just "extra" mash time or included in the roughly 60 mins mash?

 

[mongoose33]

So while you're heating up your strike water from mash temp to mashout (roughly 169 or so) - is that just "extra" mash time or included in the roughly 60 mins mash?

I think it's more like a step mash. I do an underletting of my grain, and it takes...oh, maybe 7 or 8 minutes for the grain to be submerged. I would think that the timer would start when that entire grain bed was submerged.

But here's the issue I'm thinking with that: as the water moves into the mash tun from the bottom, it's pushing enzymatic water up into the grain bed, replacing the water at the bottom. So I'm not sure if the grain at the bottom is getting the same effect as grain higher up.

I've solved this, if you will, by simply starting the clock when I stir after all the water is in there. It ends up being more like a 70-minute mash, but I can't see (or taste) that it makes any difference. In the end, I'm getting the total conversion I'm looking for.

 

[augiedoggy]

So while you're heating up your strike water from mash temp to mashout (roughly 169 or so) - is that just "extra" mash time or included in the roughly 60 mins mash?

no it actually completes the conversion process in a more efficient matter this way and usually results in a higher efficiency. I used to skip this process and found my efficiencies improved consistently when doing it. al together when I slowed my sparging speed down and started performing the mashout my average efficiency went from 88% to 91% thats a big jump. if you recirculat quickly the process process isnt as efficient due to channeling but if its done slowly the liquid moves/drains through evenly as a layer from top to bottom.

 

[augiedoggy]

I think it's more like a step mash. I do an underletting of my grain, and it takes...oh, maybe 7 or 8 minutes for the grain to be submerged. I would think that the timer would start when that entire grain bed was submerged.

But here's the issue I'm thinking with that: as the water moves into the mash tun from the bottom, it's pushing enzymatic water up into the grain bed, replacing the water at the bottom. So I'm not sure if the grain at the bottom is getting the same effect as grain higher up.

I've solved this, if you will, by simply starting the clock when I stir after all the water is in there. It ends up being more like a 70-minute mash, but I can't see (or taste) that it makes any difference. In the end, I'm getting the total conversion I'm looking for.

Wait I missed something? whos recirculating or sparging from the bottom up? is that what you mean by underletting? what does this accomplish? I would think it would disturb the grainbed filter and result in cloudy wort and more trub in the kettle at the end of the boil.

 

[kh54s10]

Hi all - couple of quick questions. Recently installed my 20-gal e-herms setup and loving it - having brewed 3 amazing batches already. That being said, I have a couple of questions related to temps and timers.

First is during my mash. When do you folks start your mash timers? Immediately when you start your circulation? OR After temps stabilize at your ideal mash temp? Example - my HLT is 154, and when I finish my dough-in and start circulating - obviously - my output temp from the mashtun is more like 130 or so until everything heats up. Do you start your timer after temp equalization or at the start of circulation?

Second - when getting ready to mash out and heating up my strike water - do you just leave everything closed off or do you continue circulating as you're heating your strike water towards 170?

THANKS!

I don't have electric yet, but I would raise your strike water temperature so that you are very close to your mash temperature. In my 3 vessel gravity system I usually need 168 or so for the strike water to get approximately 150-154 mash temperature. If you get close, the time it takes for the temperature to stabilize should be very short. It should be only a couple of minutes. If longer you need to adjust your strike temperature.

I batch sparge currently so I don't do a mash out. On a herms system I would keep the recirculation going so that all the grain gets to 170 fairly evenly. If you heat from the bottom, it will get hot down low and be cool on the top unless you constantly stir the grains.

 

[mongoose33]

Wait I missed something? whos recirculating or sparging from the bottom up? is that what you mean by underletting? what does this accomplish? I would think it would disturb the grainbed filter and result in cloudy wort and more trub in the kettle at the end of the boil.

Underletting is the initial "doughing in" of the grain--except that you put the crushed grain in the mash tun, then fill with strike water from the bottom up. That can be done by pumping into the drain valve, or one could even use tubing to gravity feed the water to the bottom of the vessel if there's no valve.

Once underlet, the mash proceeds mostly as normal. When I implement the RIMS system we've talked about, I'll reverse that flow, drawing from the bottom through the valve, through the pump, through the RIMS, and back to the top of the mash.

Underletting is a LODO technique, using deoxygenated strike water, and not exposing the grain/mash to any more O2 than is necessary or possible. Oddly, when you underlet like this, there are NO dough balls at all. Weirdest thing.

 

[racehead]

I've been underletting myself and find that it works great!

 

[swimIan]

How quickly does the water flow into the MT when you underlet? Is there a recommended flow rate?

 

[mongoose33]

How quickly does the water flow into the MT when you underlet? Is there a recommended flow rate?

I can just tell you what I do--the idea is to flow the water in. Typically it's about a 10 minute deal for me, slow until the grain bed is covered, then I speed it up a bit. I typically will have about 8 gallons of water, so probably 3/4-gallon per minute at the outset, then up over a gallon per minute later.

I'm using a pump to control this, but I also used to use a HLT draining by gravity into the MT (which in that case was a BIAB setup). That worked very well, as it turns out, so having a pump is not necessary. The way I did this was heat my strike water in the BK, then transfer it up to the cooler. Then I put in the bag, put tubing to the bottom on the outside of the bag, and then added the grain.