Target Mash pH When Adding Dark Malts During Vourlaf?

[micraftbeer]

I will frequently use the "Gordon Strong method" of adding my dark malts at the end of mash (during mashout while recirculating in my RIMS setup). I got this from his great recipe book as a process that takes a bit of the bitter edge off of the roasted malts. I'm not looking for lovers or haters of this concept, I'm just trying to figure out target mash pH for this arrangement. Using the built-in water calculator in BrewFather, it automatically loads the grain bill from my recipe and predicts the mash pH. I'll then make acid additions as appropriate to hit my desired target.

I believe the main purpose of adjusting mash pH is to hit the sweet spot for maximum mash conversion efficiency. But I have also read threads about setting up the final beer pH by starting the mash pH where you want it to be.

So if I'm focused on mash conversion efficiency, since I'm not adding the dark malts until later, it seems like I should exclude them from the water calculator, which would then likely have me adding some acid. But after adding my dark malts during mashout, the resulting wort I get out of the mash tun would be lower than if I had included the dark malts in the calculation from the start- which seems like it could set me up for a different/lower finished beer pH at the end of it all.

Anyone else use this method, or have any suggestions?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Anyone [...] have any suggestions?

His approach to water (as described in Brewing Better Beer & Modern Homebrew Recipes) doesn't appear to need a spreadsheet for water related adjustments.

eta: I would be concerned that most water-related spreadsheets / software may not properly model what you are trying to do.

 

[micraftbeer]

I found in Brewfather, I can just select the water calculator to ignore the black patent malt. I then can enter the acid addition and see resulting mash pH, including my brewing salt additions. May be a near negligible difference, though, as toggling the 11.2 oz black patent malt on or off changed the predicted mash pH by only 0.05.

That's how I'm going to proceed, just wondered if others were using this method with dark malts.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I've used it ( "Gordon Strong method" ) occasionally in the past and recently on a couple of test batches (recently I've been using Water Chemistry - How to Build Your Water Bertus Brewery for most of my "all-grain" batches).

I'll probably start using it more this year to "dial it in" - as I find the lack of software in the process to be refreshing.

 

[tracer bullet]

FWIW it's a really interesting question. I would also think the mash gets priority, and after that I think the idea is that you don't sparge at too high of a pH that you risk tannin extraction or whatever it is that is said to happen. Maybe the addition of the dark grains and the further drop in pH is a direction not too important by that time? I'd want to know how pH fits in with the final beer as well, the finished product. I've not actually ever even considered pH beyond the mash. Interested in this as well.

 

[hottpeper13]

The reason I don't do the Gordan Strong dark mash is I can't predict the final pH. When i do a stout or porter I can use 1/2 well and 1/2 RO water so it's convenient for me to mash all in.
I would like to know the answer to this question, so I'm in.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

There's a couple of recent topics over in AHA forums that might be worth following:

• Mash pH
• When you've adjusted your brewing water, what was the outcome?

IIRC, one can join the AHA forums without being an AHA member.

 

[doug293cz]

If you are not mashing the roast malts, then just forget about them when doing mash pH calculations (leave them out of the grain bill for your water calcs.) You want the pH in the correct range while saccarification is occurring - which is when there are no roast malts present.

Adding the roast malts at mash-out or vorlauf should drop the pH lower, so you don't have to worry about tannin extraction.

You should probably check the wort pH in the BK to be sure it is in an acceptable range, and adjust as required.

Brew on

 

[couchsending]

Wort pH in the kettle is just as important to the final beer profile as Mash pH. And depending on what you’re trying to accomplish might be even more critical.

There are pH optimums for protein coagulation, alpha acid isomerizarion, DMS conversion, and the effectiveness of kettle finings. Learning more about these and measuring pH past just the mash will give you a better understanding ofthe brewing process and how to optimize the profile of every beer.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

You should probably check the wort pH in the BK to be sure it is in an acceptable range, and adjust as required.

Wort pH in the kettle is just as important to the final beer profile as Mash pH. And depending on what you’re trying to accomplish might be even more critical.

This is one thing that has scared me away from the "Gordon Strong Method". I get the general simplicity...he has a very similar grain bill in every mash so he does not have to tweak to raise or lower the pH for every batch. It just seems like mashing at 5.4, then throwing in your dark grains after the mash will mess up the down stream pH. I am not sure I really want to acidify my mash to get it into the right range, then try to raise the pH of my boil to bring it back up.

I am not 100% sold on the idea that adding dark grains to the mash adds astringency either.

On the other hand, Gordon Strong has won many medals, so I am pretty sure the guy knows how to make a pretty good beer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Modern Homebrew Recipes has a chapter on dark beers. Maybe follow the recipe (give the pH meter a rest on the 1st brew) and enjoy the beer?

Also, it may be that some people are "super tasters" (New IPA, chapter 5, paragraph 3) when it comes to astringency (Modern Homebrew Recipes, chapter 6, paragraph 1).

 

[micraftbeer]

In retrospect, I do think I was overthinking the mash pH effect. When I excluded the black malt, it only affected my calculated pH by 0.05. I wouldn't freak out if my target mash was 5.4 and I measured 5.45, I would think that was pretty dang good. So I think including or excluding the dark malts in my target mash pH calculation is something I don't need to worry about.

As for the method of adding the dark malts later, I personally feel it takes a bit of the "bite" out of the dark malt. It depends on the beer, and probably mostly of the taster whether you want that bite or not. For example, in my Black IPA recipe, I add the dark malts later. In my stout recipes, I usually include it in the full mash duration.