Stout recipe pH too low...how to add more pH

[HOPtuary]

Guys I have been trying to get this recipe together for a Stone Milk Stout Clone but my pH keeps coming out close or below 5.0. How can I get more pH into the mash to help with conversions. Below is the recipe with mineral additions calced from BnW 5. My water in Chicago has the following properties - 7.8pH, Ca 36.3, Mg 12.2, Na 8.5, HCO3 123.7, CO3 0.5, SO4 25.5, Cl 14.3. If adjustments need to me made to some of the dark roasted grains this can be done. Just looking to see what the masses have for ideas. Thanks

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.77 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.77 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.080 SG
Estimated Color: 46.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 38.3 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 85.1 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU Volume
8.63 gal HOME Water 1 - -
1.10 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash) Water Agent 2 - -
1.10 g Salt (Mash) Water Agent 3 - -
0.50 g Baking Soda (Mash) Water Agent 4 - -
0.30 g Calcium Chloride (Mash) Water Agent 5 - -
9 lbs 11.7 oz Pale Malt (Malteurop 2-Row) (1.8 SRM) Grain 6 56.9 % 0.76 gal
1 lbs 7.8 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 7 8.7 % 0.12 gal
1 lbs 4.1 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 8 7.3 % 0.10 gal
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 9 5.6 % 0.07 gal
14.9 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 10 5.4 % 0.07 gal
13.1 oz Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 11 4.8 % 0.06 gal
9.8 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 12 3.6 % 0.05 gal
1.20 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Sparge) Water Agent 13 - -
1.20 g Salt (Sparge) Water Agent 14 - -
0.50 g Baking Soda (Sparge) Water Agent 15 - -
0.30 g Calcium Chloride (Sparge) Water Agent 16 - -
1.05 oz Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 17 33.2 IBUs -
1.05 oz East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 10.0 mi Hop 18 5.1 IBUs -
1 lbs 5.3 oz Milk Sugar (Lactose) [Boil] [Boil for 10 min](0. Sugar 19 7.8 % 0.11 gal

 

[thehaze]

I can share my experience with the latest 9.5% Porter I brewed on Nov. 3 and bottled yesterday.

The starting water had 50 ppm Ca, around 5 ppm each of Mg, Cl, SO4 and Na and around 145 ppm HCO3. I added salts to reach 40 ppm Cl and 80 ppm SO4. Mash pH measured at 20, 30 and 60 minutes was 5.45 with 4.5 gr of Baking Soda added to the mash. Final beer pH was 4.15.

The recipe had 13.2 lbs Maris Otter and 1.1 lbs each of Brown, Amber, Chocolate, Pale Chocolate and Crystal 90-100L.

If your mash pH is too low, you need to raise it using baking soda, which is easy, cheap and pretty reliable in terms of results. Higher levels of Ca and Na will not hurt your beer, if you by any chance are afraid of using more baking soda.

 

[Rev2010]

I believe you can just withhold the roasted malts till the last 20 or so minutes of the mash.


Rev.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Presuming that your volume of mash water is 8.63 gallons of your high alkalinity Chicago water, I'm predicting that this recipe should mash at ~5.4 pH, given your high alkalinity local water plus your alkalinity raising 0.5 gram pinch of baking soda, along with your mild additional added mash mineralization.

If your mash water is only half of the 8.63 gallons of water, it should still mash at around 5.3 pH. This for a mash pH sample drawn at 30 to preferably 60 minutes into the mash, and cooled to 68 degrees.

 

[HOPtuary]

Mash water would be about about 5.5 gallons and fly sparge water would be another 5. Using BnW it is giving me a pH of 5.0 as shown above. If i add more 5.5g of baking soda I can get it up to about 5.3 which sounds much better.

Presuming that your volume of mash water is 8.63 gallons of your Chicago water, I'm predicting that this recipe should mash at ~5.4 pH, given your high alkalinity local water plus your 0.5 gram pinch of baking soda, along with your mild additional added mash mineralization.

If your mash water is only half of the 8.63 gallons of water, it should mash at around 5.3 pH

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

BW always seems to toss up unusually low mash pH figures for stouts and porters. It seems to stand rather uniquely alone among all of the available mash pH assistant software in that regard.

If you sample at the 10 minute mark of the mash you may get such a false low pH, so avoid that, and sample at 30 to more preferably 60 minutes into the mash, at a time when conversion is complete. Otherwise you are sampling a moving target. You need to sample a stable wort, not a still evolving and changing wort.

 

[HOPtuary]

Well I definitely do not trust BS3 pH levels as many have stated since its release. I can go with adding the baking soda and then if I need to correct for a high pH then i can pull it back down with lactic.

BW always seems to toss up unusually low mash pH figures for stouts and porters. It seems to stand rather uniquely alone among all of the available mash pH assistant software in that regard.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

My opinion is that accurate mash pH prediction is not to be decided via an internet driven popularity contest wherein what is likely to occur is much akin to the blind leading the blind. The only way to reasonably pick a winner is to measure mash pH carefully and properly to determine for yourself who wins.

Have you considered trying 'Mash Made Easy'?

 

[RPh_Guy]

0.50 g Baking Soda (Sparge) Water Agent 15 - -

Baking soda is not recommended for sparge water. In fact, you probably want to add some acid to knock out the alkalinity.

As already mentioned, baking soda can help increase the mash pH, or you could try staggering the heavily roasted malts.
I like using brun water, but mash made easy is pretty reasonable.

Cheers

 

[HOPtuary]

The baking soda would go directly into the mash only, not the sparge.

I like the idea of staggering the roasted malts to later in the mash. I just dont want to sacrific flavors. Im going to see what MME says about this recipe.

 

[HOPtuary]

MME gives totally pH different numbers than BnW. Its actually closer to BS3 as far as pH

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

MME gives totally pH different numbers than BnW. Its actually closer to BS3 as far as pH

Did that surprise you, seeing that all currently available mash pH assistant software sans for BW would predict likewise? Did you take the time to properly adjust for the DI Mash pH value range of your predominant base malt via the drop down in the lower right hand corner? That generally drops the MME pH predictions a bunch, since MME comes to you via download pre-set for Pilsner malt as your base malt, and Pilsner base malt is the most alkaline (with respect to your chosen mash pH target) base malt of all of them by some measure. Most base malts are far more acidic. Use the drop down to properly account for this.

Were you aware that BS3 utilizes the well respected math models of peer reviewed brewing expert DM Riffe? Are you aware that this forums peer reviewed resident beer brewing scientist of renown, @ajdelange, would almost assuredly predict an even higher mash pH than would MME or BS3?

 

[HOPtuary]

Did that surprise you, seeing that all currently available mash pH assistant software sans for BW would predict likewise? Did you take the time to properly adjust for the DI Mash pH value range of your predominant base malt via the drop down in the lower right hand corner? That generally drops the MME pH predictions a bunch, since MME comes to you via download pre-set for Pilsner malt as your base malt, and Pilsner base malt is the most alkaline (with respect to your chosen mash pH target) base malt of all of them by some measure. Most base malts are far more acidic. Use the drop down to properly account for this.

Were you aware that BS3 utilizes the well respected math models of peer reviewed brewing expert DM Riffe? Are you aware that this forums peer reviewed resident beer brewing scientist of renown, @ajdelange, would almost assuredly predict an even higher mash pH than would MME or BS3?

I did see and i did adjust the DI to reflect the 2ROW option.

I was expecting something in the middle of the two. But i know there is still a huge arguement out there for what software predicts the pH the best but Im not about to dive down that endless worm hole. So needless to say MME and BS3 and close to each other for a reason and BnW is at the other end of the spectrum due to a completely different calculation method. I guess the only real thing to do is be able to adjust things on the fly within the brewday. Mineral additions done change is just the pH calcs.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

At this juncture I must inject that Mash Made Easy does not utilize DM Riffe's, or A.J. deLange's, or anyone else's mash pH prediction math model(s).

Attempting to adjust mash pH on the fly (I.E., while mashing) is to be highly avoided. It forces you to sample at the 10 minute mark, and get a false mash pH reading thereby. Everything that can be converted from starch to sugars has likely done so by the 20-30 minute mark, and if you sample at 10 minutes, cool the sample to 68 degrees, calibrate your meter, and take a stable reading (which requires several minutes of the probe being immersed in the sample), by then everything the enzymes were capable of doing has already been done, and there is no logical reason to adjust pH to assist them, because they are already finished doing the task they were called upon to do.

 

[HOPtuary]

So then its like I said then that I must then just adjust on the fly and watch the pH throughout the brew then.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Read, or re-read my post #14 reply above your post #15 please.

 

[HOPtuary]

Read, or re-read my post #14 reply above your post #15 please.

For some reason you whole comment #14 didn't show up when I posted #15

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I was editing my post while you were typing yours. That's why I told you to go back and re-read it.

 

[HOPtuary]

I gotcha. So as I see it now I have 2 options: brew this as is and see how the pH ends up or I can add my roasted malts later in the mash to avoid them dropping the pH so drastically.

 

[Rev2010]

I like the idea of staggering the roasted malts to later in the mash. I just dont want to sacrific flavors.

You're not going to sacrifice flavors as roasted grains don't really need to be mashed. Besides, sitting in the mash for 20 minutes should be totally fine. All the conversion of your base malts should be completed by then at a more ideal mash pH.


Rev.

 

[HOPtuary]

You're not going to sacrifice flavors as roasted grains don't really need to be mashed. Besides, sitting in the mash for 20 minutes should be totally fine. All the conversion of your base malts should be completed by then at a more ideal mash pH.


Rev.

I like this option. It seems like a safe play.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I gotcha. So as I see it now I have 2 options: brew this as is and see how the pH ends up or I can add my roasted malts later in the mash to avoid them dropping the pH so drastically.

I vote for the former, but the latter certainly has its proponents. Learn from this one, take notes, and adjust accordingly for the next time you brew it. If you chose the second option, you will not give yourself an opportunity to learn.

 

[HOPtuary]

I vote for the former, but the latter certainly has its proponents. Learn from this one, take notes, and adjust accordingly for the next time you brew it. If you chose the second option, you will not give yourself an opportunity to learn.

Also a very good point. Dang it! Is it too early to start drinking instead of trying to wrap my head around this?

 

[Vale71]

You could also start by withholding the gypsum and CaCL2 additions. Seeing as they lower PH and you need to raise it that's the first thing I would do. Table salt is fine as it is PH-neutral and will just increase taste perception.