Storing bottles too warm = loss of carbonation?

[Sballe]

Maybe someone can confirm or reject this theory….

I had a couple of cider-batches that I KNOW had developed nice carbonation. Was bottled between November last year and January this year … I have had several bottles, all with good carbonation.

Now - I have left them alone for a few months, all bottles left in my shed, and since summer is finally here, temperature has been increasing to 80-85+ for a while, maybe higher some days.

Had a few bottles yesterday with some friends - and all of them were almost flat! 5 bottles … all of them!!

Don’t think all 5 could have had a leak?

My theory now is this … could the hot storage cause such an increase in pressure that co2 has been ‘forced out’? And then when chilled resulting ind an almost flat cider ?

I really hope not … because this would have ruined 50+ bottles then !!?

Does the theory hold up? Or could it be something else ?

 

[doug293cz]

You could only lose carbonation if the cap seals leaked. Otherwise, the amount of CO2 in the bottles would be constant. Any CO2 that came out of the cider into the headspace due to the higher temps would reabsorb into the cider upon cooling, although it could take a few days.

Brew on

 

[DaveC73]

What Doug said. Were they crown caps or flip top bottles? If the pressure gets high enough, flip tops are said to leak a bit, but things shouldn't go all the way flat.

 

[Sballe]

It was crown caps. Will try a couple of bottles again tonight or tomorrow … hopefully it will be a better result!

 

[Sballe]

Follow-up question … how do I find out if it was a leak on the seal of the caps? Would they leak liquid as well ? (If turned upside down)

 

[doug293cz]

Follow-up question … how do I find out if it was a leak on the seal of the caps? Would they leak liquid as well ? (If turned upside down)

If they don't have any significant carbonation, either the seals leaked, or they were never carbonated in the first place. Those are the only two possibilities.

Brew on

 

[Chalkyt]

I had one batch (a few years ago) that ended up with no carbonation. Unsealing, adding sugar and just a pinch of yeast then sealing with new crown caps resulted in nicely carbonated cider.

The possibilities were... poor capping in the first place, or I hadn't rinsed the starsan from the crown caps (I don't think this was an issue because starsan is supposed to be no-rinse), or somehow I had killed the yeast.

BTW, Grolsch acknowledge that their flip-tops (and I guess others) can leak at around 70 -80 psi. If I pasteurise in a hot water-bath the crown caps are below the water surface and very occasionally I will see bubbles at around 60C (100psi or so), but the CO2 in those individual bottles seems to be fine when they cool down.

 

[MaxStout]

Put a bunch of them in the fridge, let them chill a couple days. Pick several at random and try them. Are they all undercarbed? If so, likely leaking caps or they weren't carbed to begin with. Maybe your capping process didn't crimp properly?

If some, but not all are undercarbed, then likely the priming sugar wasn't mixed well before bottling.

 

[IslandLizard]

Was bottled between November last year and January this year … I have had several bottles, all with good carbonation.

So those were carbonated.
Is there a possibility the priming sugar wasn't evenly distributed over all the bottles?

Did you hear any gas release (a gentle "pssst" or something much louder) when opening those warmed up bottles?
If not, as @doug293cz said, there wasn't sufficient carbonation, or the caps leaked.

 

[Sballe]

So those were carbonated.
Is there a possibility the priming sugar wasn't evenly distributed over all the bottles?

Did you hear any gas release (a gentle "pssst" or something much louder) when opening those warmed up bottles?
If not, as @doug293cz said, there wasn't sufficient carbonation, or the caps leaked.

I added sugar to EACH bottle, so the 'distribution of priming sugar' cannot be the answer. I use 'cubed sugar' which makes it very precise to dose for each bottle - they weigh 2 grams each, so the results are quite even.

I had it in secondary for 4-5 months ... which i usually dont to. Could this have killed of the yeast ? (then again, doesnt really make sense that some of them had good carb then?).

Opened another 4 bottles yesterday ... all flat. They had a veeery slight "psst" when opened ... does this mean that the seals were ok?

 

[IslandLizard]

I had it in secondary for 4-5 months

That could be the issue, without using a little fresh yeast for priming.

Did you bottle straight from the secondary?
If so, it's possible that bottles filled from the top of the secondary were lacking yeast, while the ones filled from closer to the bottom still had some, or perhaps from the yeast/trub layer being disturbed a little while racking/transferring.

 

[Sballe]

I had one batch (a few years ago) that ended up with no carbonation. Unsealing, adding sugar and just a pinch of yeast then sealing with new crown caps resulted in nicely carbonated cider.

The possibilities were... poor capping in the first place, or I hadn't rinsed the starsan from the crown caps (I don't think this was an issue because starsan is supposed to be no-rinse), or somehow I had killed the yeast.

BTW, Grolsch acknowledge that their flip-tops (and I guess others) can leak at around 70 -80 psi. If I pasteurise in a hot water-bath the crown caps are below the water surface and very occasionally I will see bubbles at around 60C (100psi or so), but the CO2 in those individual bottles seems to be fine when they cool down.

That could be the issue, without using a little fresh yeast for priming.

Did you bottle straight from the secondary?
If so, it's possible that bottles filled from the top of the secondary were lacking yeast, while the ones filled from closer to the bottom still had some, or perhaps from the yeast/trub layer being disturbed a little while racking/transferring.

I racked into a pitcher before bottling - so it should be mixed well.

Is it normal to add fresh yeast when bottling? I wasn’t aware of this …

 

[IslandLizard]

I racked into a pitcher before bottling - so it should be mixed well.

You mean racked into a bottling bucket or so? Then at the end of the transfer giving it a gentle stir (not beating any air into it) is recommended to homogenize the batch, before bottling.

Is it normal to add fresh yeast when bottling? I wasn’t aware of this …

After 3-4 months, or longer, in a secondary, it's probably best to add a little fresh yeast to the content of the bottling bucket, just to make sure. Could be any yeast, it's not that critical unless you have a high % alcohol batch, then use a (bottling) yeast that can survive that, such as CBC-1 or EC-1118.

This still does not explain why some bottles were carbonated and others are not, or barely.

 

[Sballe]

You mean racked into a bottling bucket or so? Then at the end of the transfer giving it a gentle stir (not beating any air into it) is recommended to homogenize the batch, before bottling.


After 3-4 months, or longer, in a secondary, it's probably best to add a little fresh yeast to the content of the bottling bucket, just to make sure. Could be any yeast, it's not that critical unless you have a high % alcohol batch, then use a (bottling) yeast that can survive that, such as CBC-1 or EC-1118.

This still does not explain why some bottles were carbonated and others are not, or barely.

But what happens if I have a batch that finishes at say 1.004 on SafCider AC-4 yeast ... and then I add EC-1118 to the bottle to create carbonation? It would probably go completely dry then ... sort of ruin the idea of using a yeast that finishes a little sweeter...

 

[MaxStout]

But what happens if I have a batch that finishes at say 1.004 on SafCider AC-4 yeast ... and then I add EC-1118 to the bottle to create carbonation? It would probably go completely dry then ... sort of ruin the idea of using a yeast that finishes a little sweeter...

If you're concerned with bottling yeast attenuating it further, use some neutral ale yeast, like US-05.

 

[mac_1103]

But what happens if I have a batch that finishes at say 1.004 on SafCider AC-4 yeast ... and then I add EC-1118 to the bottle to create carbonation? It would probably go completely dry then ... sort of ruin the idea of using a yeast that finishes a little sweeter...

If the concern is only that the original yeast has all fallen out or died after aging, then you can carbonate by adding more of the same yeast. The advantage of conditioning yeasts like CBC-1 and similar is their high alcohol tolerance and (for beer anyway) the fact that they don't assimilate maltotriose (i.e., the only thing available for them to ferment is the priming sugar, so no risk of bottle bombs).

 

[IslandLizard]

Mind, this is Cider, so pretty much all sugars present are simple and thus fermentable, regardless of yeast pitched.

High alcohol content can kill the original yeast that was pitched, stalling fermentation and prevent carbonation later on. In that scenario use high-alcohol resistant yeasts such as certain Champagne yeasts, or specialized bottling yeasts.

 

[IslandLizard]

But what happens if I have a batch that finishes at say 1.004 on SafCider AC-4 yeast ... and then I add EC-1118 to the bottle to create carbonation? It would probably go completely dry then ... sort of ruin the idea of using a yeast that finishes a little sweeter...

I had to look up SafCider AC-4. Turns out she's classified as a killer yeast.
So pitching another yeast for carbonation can become a bit of a challenge at this point.

There's no maximum alcohol percentage listed in the specs, on the site or on the PDF datasheet. But since you had some bottles carbonated, it must have worked for those. So alcohol content cannot have been the limiting factor.

https://fermentis.com/en/product/safcider-ac-4/

 

[mac_1103]

Conditioning yeasts like CBC-1 are also killers. Killer strains can't kill other killer strains.