Starter overflow

[GoeHaarden]

So I began building up my WLP800 starter at the beginning of the week, with anticipation of brewing a lager on Thursday. Well, I got sick and I'm pushing my brew day until this coming up Monday.

I initially made a 1.5L starter, put it on the stir plate for 36 hours, and into the fridge. I decanted off most of the liquid and did a second step with 1.25L. Back to the stir plate. Went to bed, and woke up to my counter covered with yeast/wort mixture. Took it off the stir plate, maintained santization, and just gave it a swirl every once in a while. Now back in fridge.

Never had a starter erupt like this. Not really sure how much yeast I lost, but my yeast cake looks smaller than it initially did before stepping it up. Usually, I wouldn't be too worried, but I'm brewing a lager and don't want to underpitch.

Should I get another vial and pitch it with my starter? Or just go with it?

 

[flars]

A step up to propagate the maximum number of cells requires a larger volume of wort for the second step. Without the greater volume of wort the inoculation rate is too high reducing the growth rate.

Do you have a one gallon jug to use for a shaken not stirred starter? Glass or plastic. Just something to hold a larger volume of wort to finish the step up.

These two calculators may help with your numbers.
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php
https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

 

[kh54s10]

Lager yeasts are supposedly bottom fermenters?? I find that second rounds of starters are often way more active than the first. I would be surprised if there is less yeast than originally unless you lost half of the liquid volume as well as the foam.

If you think you lost a lot of yeast, I think it is time to do a third step up. http://www.yeastcalculator.com/

 

[GoeHaarden]

A step up to propagate the maximum number of cells requires a larger volume of wort for the second step.

I didn't know that the steps had to be larger volumes. Is this why it volcano'd on me?

I usually use brewersfriend to help calculate in order to get to where I need to be, and it calculated ~ 450B cells or 1.75M cells/mL. I didn't lose a lot of total volume, but what I did lose clearly had yeast in it.

Lager yeasts are supposedly bottom fermenters?? I find that second rounds of starters are often way more active than the first. I would be surprised if there is less yeast than originally unless you lost half of the liquid volume as well as the foam.

If you think you lost a lot of yeast, I think it is time to do a third step up.

My thoughts exactly regarding lager yeast being bottom fermenters. I've never seen such a thing. I wish I took pictures before I cleaned it up.

If I can't find a 1 gallon vessel to do another step, then should I even try? Like flars was explaining...

 

[GoeHaarden]

Well, anyways I decide to go James Bond on that B...shaken not stirred. Found a spare 1 gallon glass carboy. I decanted about half of the liquid from the original starter, and then added it to a 3L step. Not going to agitate it at all, the calculator (using C. White) says I should end up with 2.59M cells/mL. That's if I didn't lose any in the beginning steps...

Thanks for the tips and guidance, I think I'll be good now

 

[flars]

Well, anyways I decide to go James Bond on that B...shaken not stirred. Found a spare 1 gallon glass carboy. I decanted about half of the liquid from the original starter, and then added it to a 3L step. Not going to agitate it at all, the calculator (using C. White) says I should end up with 2.59M cells/mL. That's if I didn't lose any in the beginning steps...

Thanks for the tips and guidance, I think I'll be good now

You won't need to shake if the added wort was aerated well. It will ferment just like a regular beer that isn't oxidized by shaking during fermentation.

 

[GoeHaarden]

You won't need to shake if the added wort was aerated well. It will ferment just like a regular beer that isn't oxidized by shaking during fermentation.

The only aeration this wort got was when I poured it into the carboy. Left it alone last night, and I wake of to a pile of soggy bread attached to the outside of my jar. Lol, I give up. Let's just hope with all these steps & loses, that I have a good number of viable yeast.

 

[IslandLizard]

One drop of Fermcap-S in your starter wort when you boil it (stainless pot) will prevent excessive foaming and boil overs during the boil. It also keeps krausen forming and blow-offs at bay during manually shaken yeast propagation, but not completely.

3 liters in a gallon jug doesn't leave a lot of headspace. Next time split it over two 1 gallon jugs with 2 liters of starter wort in each, which will leave plenty of headspace (with Fermcap). Or use a 3 gallon carboy...

 

[GoeHaarden]

One drop of Fermcap-S in your starter wort when you boil it (stainless pot) will prevent excessive foaming and boil overs during the boil. It also keeps krausen forming and blow-offs at bay during manually shaken yeast propagation, but not completely.

3 liters in a gallon jug doesn't leave a lot of headspace. Next time split it over two 1 gallon jugs with 2 liters of starter wort in each, which will leave plenty of headspace (with Fermcap). Or use a 3 gallon carboy...

I've really never had a problem with blow-offs on my starters before, but I guess they were smaller and never really stepped them up. First time doing a lager yeast starter though...do you think I have enough of a cell count left with all this loss?

 

[IslandLizard]

I've really never had a problem with blow-offs on my starters before, but I guess they were smaller and never really stepped them up. First time doing a lager yeast starter though...do you think I have enough of a cell count left with all this loss?

Hard to judge without seeing the amount of cold crashed slurry.
That bit of yeast that you had in your hand doesn't look like a great loss in a usual 2nd step up, but how much did you lose in the first blow off?

I've lost half my yeast to the countertop many times, same as you, before I built a stir plate. Later I obtained 2 orbital lab shakers.

Are you planning to brew today?
Pitch the whole jug, without cold crashing and decanting?
Do you oxygenate your wort before pitching?

 

[GoeHaarden]

Hard to judge without seeing the amount of cold crashed slurry.
That bit of yeast that you had in your hand doesn't look like a great loss in a usual 2nd step up, but how much did you lose in the first blow off?

I've lost half my yeast to the countertop many times, same as you, before I built a stir plate. Later I obtained 2 orbital lab shakers.

Are you planning to brew today?
Pitch the whole jug, without cold crashing and decanting?
Do you oxygenate your wort before pitching?

I probably lost the same amount on the first step.

I was planning on brewing Monday, but I might wait until Tuesday depending how much yeast appears to have fallen out of suspension when I cold crash. Going to let this step sit out 24 hours, which is midnight tonight. Then to the fridge.

I'm doing a 5 gallon Bo Pils, and so I want to decant as much as possible.

I oxygenate with pure O2 for 1-2 minutes before pitching

 

[IslandLizard]

I probably lost the same amount on the first step.

I was planning on brewing Monday, but I might wait until Tuesday depending how much yeast appears to have fallen out of suspension when I cold crash. Going to let this step sit out 24 hours, which is midnight tonight. Then to the fridge.

I'm doing a 5 gallon Bo Pils, and so I want to decant as much as possible.

I oxygenate with pure O2 for 1-2 minutes before pitching

If that's all you lost in step 1, I'd say you're pretty much OK then.

You've got some time to grow a bit more then. Now lager yeasts are slow to crash, keep that in mind.

Some brewers pitch the whole starter, and claim to never detect any off flavors. I've only done that with 1 liter vitality starters from saved slurries in ales. They were A-OK, but I had nothing to compare to side by side.

In that light, I do drink starter beer at times, and it really isn't horrible, refreshing most times. And yours isn't shaken to bits and oxidized to the max.

 

[GoeHaarden]

If that's all you lost in step 1, I'd say you're pretty much OK then.

You've got some time to grow a bit more then. Now lager yeasts are slow to crash, keep that in mind.

Some brewers pitch the whole starter, and claim to never detect any off flavors. I've only done that with 1 liter vitality starters from saved slurries in ales. They were A-OK, but I had nothing to compare to side by side.

In that light, I do drink starter beer at times, and it really isn't horrible, refreshing most times. And yours isn't shaken to bits and oxidized to the max.

Man-o-man...decisions, decisions!!! I'll probably wait until Tuesday to brew then, giving it 2.5 days to cold crash and maybe decant only half. Perhaps try my decanted portion

Thanks for the guidance here....really want to nail this lager! Off to a mediocre start. Haha.

 

[IslandLizard]

Man-o-man...decisions, decisions!!! I'll probably wait until Tuesday to brew then, giving it 2.5 days to cold crash and maybe decant only half. Perhaps try my decanted portion

Thanks for the guidance here....really want to nail this lager! Off to a mediocre start. Haha.

If after cold crashing for 2-3 days, the starter beer above the yeast layer is not entirely clear, there's some yeast left, but not much. If it's opaque it can be quite a significant amount. Sometimes only the top half is clear, so you can safely decant that part without losing good yeast.

Good oxygenation is definitely beneficial to get your yeast off to a fast start, and grow new cells quickly. I think you'll be OK.

In a wide and concave bottomed jug like that it's hard to guess how much yeast lies on the bottom. It should be at least 1/4" thick, hopefully closer to 1/2".

 

[GoeHaarden]

If after cold crashing for 2-3 days, the starter beer above the yeast layer is not entirely clear, there's some yeast left, but not much. If it's opaque it can be quite a significant amount. Sometimes only the top half is clear, so you can safely decant that part without losing good yeast.

Good oxygenation is definitely beneficial to get your yeast off to a fast start, and grow new cells quickly. I think you'll be OK.

In a wide and concave bottomed jug like that it's hard to guess how much yeast lies on the bottom. It should be at least 1/4" thick, hopefully closer to 1/2".

Yeah, when I decanted some on this last step there was 3 distinct layers. Went from clear to opaque to the yeast cake. I only decanted about half. There was 1/2" in my 2L flask, but like you said its hard to tell in this jug now. Do you think 2.5 day cold crash is long enough for a lager starter?

Either way, I just got back from New Heights Brewery with SWMBO, and wouldn't you know it a LHBS happened to be about 1 mile away. Sooo, I grabbed another vial to pitch too. Just to be safe. Watch me grossly overpitch now, I'm stupid. Haha