Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I just need some clarification... Does the "Shaken Not Stirred" starter method effect the need for wort aeration/oxygenation? That is, do you pitch an active SNS starter a kind of the way you would pitch a pack of dry yeast?
Shaken Not Stirred (SNS) Starter Question
- Thread starter Pehlman17
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
I do not think it really changes things in terms of aeration/oxygenation. Just do whatever you normally do.
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2019
- Messages
- 530
- Reaction score
- 371
I feel better with a stir plate, not gonna lie. But when you ferment beer, it does the same thing, we dont stir it around. But ill keep using a stir plate lol
There was a response in the Q&A section on an Escarpment Labs webinar along the lines of "your goal is not to oxygenate the wort, your job is to oxygenate the yeast." That was one of those "aaahaaa" moments for me. I am far from a yeast expert, but I can see where SnS or other vitality starters would give yeast a great environment to absorb oxygen and build up their cell structure. I would not go as far as to say that pitching a starter of healthy and active yeast eliminates the need for oxygenation, but my personal experience says it is good enough for a medium to low gravity ale. I could see where it would be similar to pitching a pack of dry yeast.
Red over White
Well-Known Member
This is worth going back to the source for the straight dope.
https://www.experimentalbrew.com/2020/12/09/shaken-not-stirred-the-stir-plate-myth-buster/
https://www.experimentalbrew.com/2020/12/09/shaken-not-stirred-the-stir-plate-myth-buster/
Wrt to the OP's question, I agree that the yeast propagation method should not bear on the eventual pitch strategy and in all cases would recommend oxygenating the wort after pitching...
Cheers!
Cheers!
I was informed by Denny on the Biergarten forums Home | The Biergarten that it is not necessary to aerate when using the SNS method as all the O2 needed is added in the starter. I was still skeptical, but have done no added aeration on my recent ales without any issues. My lagers, I just cannot pull the trigger on not aerating those.
That’s sort of the vibe I was getting. The original author of the post on Experimental Brewing called it something like “the poor man’s O2 bottle”, and that’s what got me wondering if that might be the case or if I was totally misunderstanding.
<cough>bullpoopy<cough>
A yeast guy (Chris White) recommends bringing freshly pitched wort to 12 ppm of O2 saturation for optimal fermentation results. On its very best day the most O2 an "SNS" starter could contain would be 8ppm, and it's just a liter or two or five. Adding the entire volume to 5 gallons of wort isn't going to come remotely close to an 8ppm O2 content, never mind 12ppm...
Cheers!
A yeast guy (Chris White) recommends bringing freshly pitched wort to 12 ppm of O2 saturation for optimal fermentation results. On its very best day the most O2 an "SNS" starter could contain would be 8ppm, and it's just a liter or two or five. Adding the entire volume to 5 gallons of wort isn't going to come remotely close to an 8ppm O2 content, never mind 12ppm...
Cheers!
But won't a lot of the gas suspended in the starter be CO2 because it has been actively fermenting?
I'm with @day_trippr here . I do SnS starters all the time. At home and the Brewery . Always aerate the wort .
Red over White
Well-Known Member
The method in the article if pitched at high kräusen does away with the need to add oxygen. I have been using goferm protect evolution in my vitality and step starters for additional insurance. It has been shown that goferm protect evolution will provide the necessary micronutrients and building blocks that yeast can directly pass through the cell wall and immediately use without having to build them from scratch in the presence of oxygen. My experience has been very short lag times and extremely healthy on point ferments without having to add oxygen to the fermenter. Subsequent repitches get another dose of goferm protect evolution. There's many ways to give yeast all the advantages possible and one likely needs to adjust procedure for the condition of the yeast at hand i.e lab grown, dry, repitched.
Are those recommendations built on experiments with SNS starters pitched whole at high krausen? Or just stir plate starters fermented dry, cold crashed, and decanted?
I don't see the value of writing off a process "B" that claims to not need a step required by process "A" by using a metric built around process "A".
It's like saying a pencil sharpener is absolutely needed to sharpen a pencil even when I'm standing here with a clickity-click mechanical. "But the owner of Ticonderoga says we need a sharpener!"
That's not to say White definitely/absolutely wrong, I just wonder if it applies to SNS as much as it does to stir plated starters.
Yes. But the goal isn't high oxygen levels in the wort. The goal is a healthy, highly active pitch of yeast with strong, flexible walls, etc leading to short lag times and strong, steady, reliable fermentations.
So do I. Never aerating other than lackadaisical splashing during transfer.
Just because you do a step doesn't make it necessary. Have you done A/Bs? I haven't, but my successful fermentations with no aeration tell me it works quite well without. Your successful fermentations tells us it works with purposeful aeration, but says nothing about without.
Isn't that what it's about , being successful? I'm not willing to risk not at least aerating a 3bbl batch just to see if it will be as successful as aerating. When you splash during transfers your essentially aerating your wort . There's a difference in aerating and oxygenateing.
People brew how they want . I wouldn't give someone advice if I'm not willing to do the same . Most of us don't do secondary. However, most of us used to do it . I've only had issues a small percentage of practicing secondary transfers.
Same can be said about oxygen/ liquid yeast. It works until it doesn't.
It's my understanding that goferm is high in sterols . Dry yeast is high in sterols as well , which is why there's no need to oxygenate your wort while using dry yeast.
Red over White
Well-Known Member
I keep pitting these methods against each other to see if I can short circuit adding oxygen in side by side ferments of the exact wort. My answer has been yes, so far. The more things I try the more ways there are available to accomplish the same thing.
For example charging the 9 liter headspace to 4 psi on a repitch with pure oxygen and using only goferm protect evolution in the other ferment and no oxygen seems to have almost no difference from wort to glass in every way. These are just my observations, but they are of note. I take in all information on it's merit, but prove it out on my gear. If it's honest, it walks the line.
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2013
- Messages
- 3,101
- Reaction score
- 5,538
I'm a KISS fan
Not that Kiss!
Anyway, the SNS works fine for me, simplies my brewing, and someone else gets to use my old stir plate
Not that Kiss!
Anyway, the SNS works fine for me, simplies my brewing, and someone else gets to use my old stir plate
Red over White
Well-Known Member
It's cold gin time again!I'm a KISS fan
View attachment 825761
Not that Kiss!
Anyway, the SNS works fine for me, simplies my brewing, and someone else gets to use my old stir plate
Fwiw, I do SNS starters, but then give the wort a good shake up after I dump the starter in (to aerate a bit and just mix the starter around). I used to aerate with an O2 wand but didn't notice any real difference to justify the additional hassle/equipment/time/cleaning.
Goferm Protect seems interesting, but wouldn't it stress the yeast to go from a starter that had all these accommodating ingredients into a wort that does not? Or do you add goferm to the wort as well?
Goferm Protect seems interesting, but wouldn't it stress the yeast to go from a starter that had all these accommodating ingredients into a wort that does not? Or do you add goferm to the wort as well?
Nah. GoFerm is specifically made for the rehydration step.
HighVoltageMan!
Well-Known Member
I have expressed my opinion about SNS on the AHA forum and I was pooed-pooed. But the reason SNS works is very simple. You're pitching at high krausen. This is not a new concept, it's been around for a really long time. When yeast is at full krausen is extremely viable.
The key to a good pitch is the proper cell count, but more importantly, is the viability of the yeast. If the yeast is viable enough, the cell count can be reduced. English brewers would often skim yeast from the top of open fermenters and pitch directly into another beer. Lags times are reduce dramatically because the yeast are young and in a high metabolic state.
You can the same thing with a stir plate, just pitch when the yeast it's in high krausen. I often wondered why SNS was easier than a stir plate, I thought it would be the other way around since you don't have to touch the starter until you're ready to pitch. Just set it and forget it. You still have to build a starter either way.
I like to pitch lagers at lower temperatures, so build the yeast up with a starter, keep it on the plate for 12-14 hours and crash the starter at high krausen. It takes longer to drop the yeast, so I crash the starter several days before brewing. I decant the beer from the starter and pitch it @ 48F. Since I've been doing this my lag times on lagers went from 18-20 hours to 12-14 hours. I have seen as low as 10 hours with a standard pitch.
Pitching at a high krausen and high viability could explain why people get good results without much aeration. I don't recommend skipping the aeration of the wort, there is a lot science and research backing up the practice. I for one saw a massive improvement in my beer when I started aerating with pure oxygen and I'm not going back.
That's my 2 cents.
The key to a good pitch is the proper cell count, but more importantly, is the viability of the yeast. If the yeast is viable enough, the cell count can be reduced. English brewers would often skim yeast from the top of open fermenters and pitch directly into another beer. Lags times are reduce dramatically because the yeast are young and in a high metabolic state.
You can the same thing with a stir plate, just pitch when the yeast it's in high krausen. I often wondered why SNS was easier than a stir plate, I thought it would be the other way around since you don't have to touch the starter until you're ready to pitch. Just set it and forget it. You still have to build a starter either way.
I like to pitch lagers at lower temperatures, so build the yeast up with a starter, keep it on the plate for 12-14 hours and crash the starter at high krausen. It takes longer to drop the yeast, so I crash the starter several days before brewing. I decant the beer from the starter and pitch it @ 48F. Since I've been doing this my lag times on lagers went from 18-20 hours to 12-14 hours. I have seen as low as 10 hours with a standard pitch.
Pitching at a high krausen and high viability could explain why people get good results without much aeration. I don't recommend skipping the aeration of the wort, there is a lot science and research backing up the practice. I for one saw a massive improvement in my beer when I started aerating with pure oxygen and I'm not going back.
That's my 2 cents.
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2012
- Messages
- 3,355
- Reaction score
- 4,220
- Location
- Either in the brewery or on the road
I’ve started doing both, and it’s the best of both worlds. I pitch my ‘source’ yeast, either saved or fresh pitch, in an Erlenmeyer flask with 200 ml of 1.038 SG wort with plenty of headroom, oxygenate, and then spin for 5~10 minutes at a moderate speed. After that I’ll let is stand until I pass by the stir plate and spin it for 30 seconds or so for the first 8~10 hours of propagation. After that I spin it for :30 seconds every “when I think about it”, and after 2~3 days I add 400-600 ml of fresh wort. Spin, repeat for another 2~3 days and I’ve got a thick layer of dense, viable slurry at high Krausen. Light-off happens within a few hours of pitch every time.
I'd appreciate additional info on how you use Go-Ferm evolution for step-up starters or repitching, eg. dosing rates, stir plates, timing, etc.
Similar threads
