Session Pale Ale--How Much Honey Malt?

[tennesseean_87]

I'm looking to brew something sorta inspired by an ordinary bitter, but not caring at all about being super traditional/authentic. I'll be using what' I've got on hand, and here's what I'm thinking about:

OG: 1.035
IBU: 21

5 lbs....................Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM).................Grain........64.5 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz...........White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM).....................Grain........19.4 %
1 lbs.....................Honey Malt (25.0 SRM)............................Grain........12.9 %
4.0 oz...................Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM)......................Grain........3.2 %
0.35 oz.................Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min.............Hop.........13.9 IBUs
0.25 oz.................Ahtanum [6.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min..............Hop..........2.5 IBUs
0.25 oz.................Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min............Hop..........2.3 IBUs
0.25 oz.................Ahtanum [6.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0..Hop..........1.5 IBUs
0.25 oz.................Willamette [5.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20..Hop...........1.4 IBUs
1.0 pkg.................London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) [124. Yeast 10 -

I've seen people say that too much honey malt makes a beer cloying, but I have a hard time imagining a beer this small being cloying. I know the percentage is high, but there's no caramalt, and I think that's mostly a function of a lack of base malt. I wouldn't mind the flavor being prominent enough to give me a good feel for the malt. I could scale it down, or sub in some victory.

I may swap the chocolate to 4 oz chocolate wheat, and it's there for some color and a hint of smooth, nutty roast. Maybe this makes it more like a non-traditional mild? I might drop an ounce of it, but I'm planning to do and overnight cold steep in my strike water, then proceed as normal.

All thoughts on any aspect of the recipe welcome!

 

[Beer-lord]

IMO, way too much honey malt if this is a 5 gallon batch. A little goes a long way. If you've never used it before, start with 4 oz which is noticeable but not cloying. I was warned long ago when I used half a lb in a 1.055 pale and it ruined it for my taste.

 

[tennesseean_87]

IMO, way too much honey malt if this is a 5 gallon batch. A little goes a long way. If you've never used it before, start with 4 oz which is noticeable but not cloying. I was warned long ago when I used half a lb in a 1.055 pale and it ruined it for my taste.

I've been reading and there are such conflicting reports. One guy think 4oz is overwhelming, another thinks 1lb is too subtle.

My logic for such small beers is that you usually use at least as much as a normal strength recipe, and just scale back the base malt, if not use a little more to compensate for the lack of maltiness in such a small beer (and in this case the bland 2-row: I'm out of MO).

Would you recommend subbing in some victory?

 

[brew703]

I've used Honey Malt several times, always a few ounces at a time. I never could detect any honey flavor or aroma.
I recently brewed a Honey Wheat which had 1 lb (10%) honey malt. At that quantity, it was definitely noticeable, but no where near cloying. I actually liked it but I like honey.

 

[dmtaylor]

A half pound will work. I wouldn't stay with a full pound. Might turn out alright, might not.

 

[JohnSand]

I've used a pound in a Rye Pale, it's a really good recipe but it takes some time to mellow. I now use a half pound.
I've had Beer-Lord's brews, he's really good.
I would err on the side of safety.
Keep us posted.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Inspired by British bitter but arguably the only British thing is the yeast! Personally a BU:GU of 0.60 is too low, it's at the bottom end of the sweeter southern bitters, my taste is more for 0.85-0.90 and a generous dose of sulphate. So I'd be going closer to 30 IBU, but that is personal preference.

British beers are all about balance, and if you let them get out of balance it's arguably more obvious than with stronger beers. Don't forget you've a low-attenuating yeast so the balance is going to be on the sweet side anyway.

Personally I'd replace half the wheat with base malt, it's getting a bit close to a witbier and it's another distinctive grain that will distract from the honey experiment.

We don't see honey malt much on this side of the pond, and it's always hard to get a feel of things from random people on the internet, my gut feel is that the people who prefer to go low are closer to the truth, you'll always have some people who have a bit of a sweet tooth and it seems to be something that maybe ages out to some extent, and a high-attenuation yeast will reduce the impact on balance. Or some people are using old stock that's aged out in the sack.

But I'd start by making a "malt tea" and adding it in steps to bland beer like a commercial macro lager. Find a quantity that is "right" in those circumstances and then add a bit more to the actual grist. Hopefully that way you'll be somewhere near "obvious-but-not-undrinkable" if you decide you don't actually like the taste.

And have a read of this thread before fermenting with 1968/WLP002.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Inspired by British bitter but arguably the only British thing is the yeast! Personally a BU:GU of 0.60 is too low, it's at the bottom end of the sweeter southern bitters, my taste is more for 0.85-0.90 and a generous dose of sulphate. So I'd be going closer to 30 IBU, but that is personal preference.

British beers are all about balance, and if you let them get out of balance it's arguably more obvious than with stronger beers. Don't forget you've a low-attenuating yeast so the balance is going to be on the sweet side anyway.

Personally I'd replace half the wheat with base malt, it's getting a bit close to a witbier and it's another distinctive grain that will distract from the honey experiment.

We don't see honey malt much on this side of the pond, and it's always hard to get a feel of things from random people on the internet, my gut feel is that the people who prefer to go low are closer to the truth, you'll always have some people who have a bit of a sweet tooth and it seems to be something that maybe ages out to some extent, and a high-attenuation yeast will reduce the impact on balance. Or some people are using old stock that's aged out in the sack.

But I'd start by making a "malt tea" and adding it in steps to bland beer like a commercial macro lager. Find a quantity that is "right" in those circumstances and then add a bit more to the actual grist. Hopefully that way you'll be somewhere near "obvious-but-not-undrinkable" if you decide you don't actually like the taste.

And have a read of this thread before fermenting with 1968/WLP002.

Thanks all for the replies. I'm thinking I may tone down the Honey, and possibly replace half with Victory malt.

I definitely meant 'inspired' in the loosest sense. The Willamette is at least of British origin, too! I've never been to England to have the beers, but I appreciate session beers and what I've done in the past with MO, S04, and 1968 (thanks for that link, I'll look more into it). I'm shooting for something a little more malt forward than typical american IPA or session IPA, and I don't want that dropping out with such a low OG, hence my use of low-attenuating yeast and character malts. I might adjust the BU:GU ratio back up again. I had it in spec, but dropped it to be closer to a recent session beer without as much malt character.

 

[rhys333]

I wouldn't go above 5% of your total grist. I stick to 3% and it's very noticeable at that amount, at least in light wheat beers and pale ales. A little definitely goes a long way. Even if you end up wanting more for your tastes, I would start off cautiously, as this malt (like melanoidin) has the potential to easily ruin a batch.

 

[dmtaylor]

Thanks all for the replies. I'm thinking I may tone down the Honey, and possibly replace half with Victory malt.

Don't overdo the victory malt, either. Limit to 4 ounces or less.

 

[tennesseean_87]

I wouldn't go above 5% of your total grist. I stick to 3% and it's very noticeable at that amount, at least in light wheat beers and pale ales. A little definitely goes a long way. Even if you end up wanting more for your tastes, I would start off cautiously, as this malt (like melanoidin) has the potential to easily ruin a batch.

I have a batch on tap of German sort of beer (5 gallon starter of 34/70) with 6 oz Melanoidin in it. I don't get any overwhelming flavors at all in the malt department at a gravity of 1.038. It also has a lb of German Munich 10L, and because of the low gravity in general, it doesn't come across as too much, at least to my palate.

Updated to current thoughts:

7 lbs.....................Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM).................Grain........87.5 %
12.0 oz.................Honey Malt (25.0 SRM).............................Grain........9.4 %
4.0 oz...................Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM)......................Grain........3.1 %
0.45 oz.................Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min.............Hop.........17.9 IBUs
0.25 oz.................Ahtanum [6.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min..............Hop..........2.5 IBUs
0.25 oz.................Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min............Hop..........2.3 IBUs
0.25 oz.................Ahtanum [6.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0..Hop..........1.5 IBUs
0.25 oz.................Willamette [5.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20..Hop...........1.4 IBUs
1.0 pkg.................London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) [124. Yeast 10

I decided to back off the honey malt. I was going to do 8 oz, but I don't want to add Victory to compensate. I settled at 12 oz, which is still conservative compared to what a few things I've read have mentioned. In past experience, I haven't minded a lot of specialty malt in a beer like this (whether it's authentic or not). Gambrinus says use up to 20%. Also, since I upped the bittering, it should be PLENTY to balance any sweetness I may get out of the big honey malt addition. At any rate, at least I'll know what a big honey malt addition will do to a beer.

I'll try to update the thread when I get around to brewing this. I'll do so after I kick the German session beer I've got on tap right now, so it'll be a while.

Edit: I may also keg hop this. I'll see what I think as I go.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I definitely meant 'inspired' in the loosest sense. The Willamette is at least of British origin, too! I've never been to England to have the beers

Don't worry, I'd sussed that you weren't after a history lesson, I was trying to keep it more flavours-based. Although Willamette's links to Britain are stretched pretty thin - and the difference in climate makes for a significant terroir difference. You'll have to come sometime - get yourself a Good Beer Guide and head for Manchester and Yorkshire by way of Burton, there's a good trip to be had there.

Don't be too afraid of the wheat - 4-6% of torrefied wheat is pretty normal in northern bitters for head retention, but as before it depends a bit on which direction you're taking it in. And I'd always say that matching speciality malts with the same amount of sugar or similar adjunct is a good place to start for a balanced British-style beer. But there is something to be said for KISS, particularly when you're learning your way around.

 

[couchsending]

2% is really all you need with Honey Malt.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Because I used 6 oz honey malt in the Baltic Porter I brewed, I only had 9.75oz left for this pale. I just brewed it. It's chilling to pitching temps in the ferm chamber now. Otherwise, I used US 2Row and 4oz chocolate malt. I targetted about 26 IBU, and used up a little Northern Brewer and EKG. 0.2 oz each of Ahtanum, Willamette, and NB at 10 min, and .2 each of Ah, Will, and EKG in the whirlpool. We'll see what it's like in a few weeks. I may throw in an oz of dry hop. We'll see. I'll take a gravity reading when I get down to 60F.

 

[JohnSand]

Looking forward to your results.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Here's the post referenced above for the fermentation temp profile to hit with this (Fuller's) strain. I'm gonna give that a go. I chilled to 60F because I remembered it wrong. I'll warm it, oxygenate, and pitch, then set the chamber to 68 with the heater near the probe so it'll cycle a bit and slow the rise to 68.

When I made the starter, I smacked the pack, then forgot to brew the starter late at night. I got it going the next morning, and I had to squeeze the yeast out because they flocced hard overnight after the pack swelled. It was crystal clear liquid, then sludge. I forgot how hard this flocs. I'm looking forward to a quick turnaround.

 

[tennesseean_87]

So I made a few mistakes. I accidentally calculated my recipe for 6 gallons, not 5.5. Then, I got a higher efficiency. So instead of the 1.034 I was targeting, I was at 1.046 and just under 5 gallons. I topped up as high as I dared in the bucket with sterile water, but it's still at about 1.038. (I always round down in my water calcs so I can top up if needed.)

And again with this yeast. I've been overbuilding starters for a while to save some for future use. I restarted my stir plate to evenly mix the sludge so I could measure out the portion to pitch and the portion to freeze...and the running stir-plate couldn't get the yeast back in suspension! Geeze!

 

[JohnSand]

I don't worry if I'm off a few points.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Was at 1.02 yesterday, so I dropped temp to 64. This morning was at 1.016 and krausen falling and clearing, though not bright. I'm betting it'll drop a few more points. I'll check gravity again tomorrow afternoon. Once it hits terminal I'll crash for a bit and then get her kegged and carbing up.

Edit: Gravity samples taste pretty good, though warm and flat. Pretty malty, though as the last points drop off, I'm sure this will change, as it will when colder and with a little carbonation. I don't find any overpowering flavor from the honey malt so far, despite the quite pungent smell when measuring the grain.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Down to 1.013 this afternoon. Mostly bright, but some clumps still floating. I think there was some mild diacetyl, but nothing bad. Another point or two off might be good, but I'm happy with where it's at.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Finished at 1.013 or so, I added some dry hops (.3oz EKG and .7oz Willamette) for a few days and started crashing. I'll transfer into keg soon.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Carbing up now, but I can't stay away. I had it on 30psi overnight and did a little shaking. About mid-day I gave a last shake, turned down the pressure, and have taken a few samples. The over-all impression is hoppy, with solid malt background which would probably be more apparent if allowed to warm (it doesn't take too long to get through a taster glass!). I don't find the Honey Malt cloying or overpowering or anything at this level. If anything the malt presence sits behind the hops.

I'm not sure if this is due to the amount honey malt itself, the balance with the hops, or the fact that it's a session beer. With an OG of ~1.038, I tend to think it will be hard to have an overwhelming malt presence. I certainly won't be a afraid to use honey malt in the future at a rate higher than many have suggested, but might be a bit more cautious in bigger beers.

 

[rhys333]

Carbing up now, but I can't stay away. I had it on 30psi overnight and did a little shaking. About mid-day I gave a last shake, turned down the pressure, and have taken a few samples. The over-all impression is hoppy, with solid malt background which would probably be more apparent if allowed to warm (it doesn't take too long to get through a taster glass!). I don't find the Honey Malt cloying or overpowering or anything at this level. If anything the malt presence sits behind the hops.

I'm not sure if this is due to the amount honey malt itself, the balance with the hops, or the fact that it's a session beer. With an OG of ~1.038, I tend to think it will be hard to have an overwhelming malt presence. I certainly won't be a afraid to use honey malt in the future at a rate higher than many have suggested, but might be a bit more cautious in bigger beers.

I have to say I'm surprised that the honey malt at that amount didn't overpower, as I can barely drink mine if I go much over 4% for HM or just 3% for melanoidin, but I'm happy it worked out well for your batch. I wonder what it is about this malt that causes brewers have such decisive results one way or the other.

 

[OG-wan Kenobi]

I have to say I'm surprised that the honey malt at that amount didn't overpower, as I can barely drink mine if I go much over 4% for HM or just 3% for melanoidin, but I'm happy it worked out well for your batch. I wonder what it is about this malt that causes brewers have such decisive results one way or the other.

Taste is subjective

 

[rhys333]

Taste is subjective

It is, but the results are usually more varied when it comes to tastes. With honey malt, people seem to clump up in two very distinct categories, which is interesting. Like olives. You love em or hate em.

It would be interesting to do a poll on this one. I might start one later if I have time.

 

[stz]

I've used it a few times up to 12% of the grist and don't really have a strong opinion either way? Beers have been good, but can't say I've got much from it, will probably not bother with it any more, probably try out some caramalts next for comparison. They have all been highly hopped IPA's or complex fruit beers, big dry hops and so on though. I might have more to say if they'd been light session pales?

 

[rhys333]

Honey malt poll.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...o-you-like-before-it-becomes-too-much.659086/