second partial mash - cream ale

[mcbar]

Hi everyone - I apologize if this recipe question is in the wrong sub forum. Please correct me if I should be posting elsewhere.

I'm about to attempt my second partial mash. After the first attempt (results still pending) I decided I needed some practice with the process before attempting anything super fancy. I decided to make a cream ale because most of my family and friends like them. Here's what I'm thinking:

3.5 lbs 2-row barley
1 lb flaked corn
0.5 lb carapils

3.3 lb LME

1.5 oz cascade 60 min
0.5 oz cascade 5 min

Nottingham


The 2-row barley is locally produced. I suppose 6-row might work better with the corn. Any thoughts?

Carapils - take it or leave it? I'm going for extra smooth mouthfeel and thought it might help.

I considered reducing the LME and replacing some of it with dextrose to keep the body light. Any suggestions?

I'm using cascade because they're inexpensive here and I have some on hand, plus I appreciate their versatility. I think what I have puts me outside official style guidelines, but I feel like my last couple batches have been a little underhopped, so I'm compensating a bit.

I have an old deep freezer in my basement that no longer functions. I was thinking of freezing blocks of ice outside now that it's cold and using my makeshift icebox for a couple weeks of secondary. To that end, I'm also playing around with the idea of using irish moss or gelatin to get the beer as clear as possible. Any suggestions? Or suggested reading?

Basically I'm going for a light, easy drinking, accessible/crowd pleasing house ale type recipe that can serve as a testing ground for more exotic ingredients in the future.

Thanks in advance!



Update:

I made some changes to the recipe based on the feedback I received here as well as what I had available. Here's what I ended up with.

3.5 lb 2-row malted barley
1 lb flaked corn
0.5 lb carapils
2.64 lb light LME
0.25 lb dextrose

1 oz Glacier 5.6% AA - 55 min

Safale US-05

90 min mash @ 150F
sparge @ 160F
90 min boil - full volume

Starting volume - 6.5 gallons
Final volume - 5 gallons

Target OG - 1.049
Target FG - 1.007
5.5% ABV

20 IBU



I decided to add a bit of dextrose because I needed to buy either slightly less or significantly more LME than I wanted, and I already have quite a bit of dextrose at home.

SWMBO has a nose like a bloodhound, so I took her to smell hops for me. She chose glacier. I played around with brewtoad, and Paradingbull's suggestion for a single 1oz hop addition at 55 minutes came out right at the IBU's I was going for.

Thanks again for your suggestions, I'll let you know how it turns out!

 

[RM-MN]

Has the barley been malted? Malting the barley sets it up so that there are enzymes to convert the starches to sugars that can be femented. It if hasn't been malted, you end up with breakfast cereal.

Properly malted 2 row barley would have sufficient enzymes to convert the corn, you don't need 6-row for that. Carapils will give you mouthfeel and better head retention. I have quit using it as I have gotten plenty of heading without it and can get the mouthfeel but mashing at a couple degrees higher temperature.

Adding dextrose will thin the body of the beer, just the opposite of what the carapils does. I'd use one or the other, not both.

I'd suggest you use some software and plug in the alpha acid content of your Cascade hops to see where the IBU's fall. I use BrewTarget but Brewer's Friend would do the same for you. The latest light ale that I made I used Cascade and even with an hour boil, some of the Cascade flavor comes through (not what I wanted but maybe fine for you with the later addition).

 

[Bowtiebrewery]

Interesting choice in the Notty yeast... I might reccomend a us-05 or perhaps WLP80 or 1056... I think Nottingham is not going to get you to the lower number you want... I think you are spot on with the Carapils and agree with the above poster that 2 row would be a better substitute if your 6-row is not malted.

 

[mcbar]

Has the barley been malted? Malting the barley sets it up so that there are enzymes to convert the starches to sugars that can be femented. It if hasn't been malted, you end up with breakfast cereal.

Yes! Sorry, I should have been more clear. I'm using 2-row malt. I have access to 6-row malt as well, but it's more expensive and not locally produced. I'll stick with the local 2-row for now and see how it turns out.

Adding dextrose will thin the body of the beer, just the opposite of what the carapils does. I'd use one or the other, not both.

Good point, I hadn't thought of it that way. If possible I'd love to double my batch, steep carapils in half of it, ferment separately and compare. I don't think I'm equipped for a 12 gallon batch. I may have to repeat the recipe with dextrose instead of carapils next time around.

Interesting choice in the Notty yeast... I might reccomend a us-05 or perhaps WLP80 or 1056... I think Nottingham is not going to get you to the lower number you want.

Mostly I picked it for it's clean flavour profile and high flocculation. I wanted to go with a dry yeast this time around to keep my costs down and I've had good results with Nottingham in the past. I have some experience with 1056, and while I liked the flavour the result was a little cloudier than I'd like for this batch. I should point out that while a bit of haze doesn't bother me, it does bother the people I'll be sharing this batch with.

That said I do want the finished product to be dry. Is us-05 significantly more attenuative than Nottingham? Any other suggestions for a highly attenuative, highly flocculant dry yeast?

I do have some Coopers kicking around, which would be another option. But I thought the Nottingham would get me a little closer to what I'm going for. Worth the extra couple bucks.

Thanks to both of you for your suggestions

 

[Bowtiebrewery]

In my experience, US-05 finishes dryer with I would say less of the flavors associated to other yeasts like Nottingham. I will agree that 1056 can sometimes clear slower, however since you are making a cream ale, you may want to do a few things to ensure a clearer beer.

Make sure your mash is as clear as you can get it (even with a partial mash) Not sure if anyone will challenge me on this, but feel free to... I don't squeeze the bag as I have noticed it will be cloudy after the squeeze. My preference and feel free to call me out on that.

Use Whirfloc in the boil

After fermentation use gelatin to fine and drop out any proteins or haze from the yeast... I've not used gelatin in a primary fermenter before, as I typically do that in the keg. Are you bottling or kegging?

 

[mcbar]

I'll be bottling. My plan is to give it two weeks or until fermentation is complete in the primary, then rack it to a glass carboy and give it a couple weeks in my makeshift icebox. My understanding is that the gelatin is added shortly before bottling, is that correct? If I add warm gelatin to lower than room temperature beer, is it going to work or will it precipitate out right away?

I've never used irish moss or whirfloc - is it as simple as just tossing it in at the end of the boil? I really don't have experience with finings because personally I prefer a bit of cloudiness

As for squeezing the bag - I thought one was never ever supposed to do that! Doesn't that extract tannins? Any other suggestions on keeping the mash as clear as possible?

Thanks again!

 

[rodwha]

Whirlflock is as easy as that. You only need half for a 5 gal batch.

I'm guessing the IBU's will be a little higher. I'd also think that something like Liberty or Willamette would be a more spot on choice of hops, but I'm not sure is citrusy is out of the realm. I use one of the two I mentioned as this is something for BMC type drinkers mostly.

I have a jalapeño cream ale going right now. I'm supposed to "dry pepper" it today.

 

[mcbar]

I have a jalapeño cream ale going right now. I'm supposed to "dry pepper" it today.

Sounds tasty!

When it comes to hops flavour and scent, I'm totally out to lunch. I'm able to notice a difference in scent between bags of pellets. In the finished product, not so much. I can tell the difference between a lot of hops vs. less hops, but haven't noticed any appreciable difference in flavour between different strains. I have a pretty bad sense of smell to begin with, so maybe that's it. Or maybe I just need to drink more beer!

Also, it looks like there are a few threads comparing Nottingham to us-05. There's some difference of opinion, but I think the consensus is the two are fairly similar (I take it us-05 is a descendent of Nottingham) with Nottingham attenuating a bit lower and us-05 being a bit less estery. I may end up going with us-05 for this brew based on some of the side by side comparisons I read, but if Nottingham is significantly cheaper I may just pick it up and be careful not to let my temps creep up (not too hard at this time of year).

 

[rodwha]

US-05 is supposed to be the same thing as WLP 001 and 1056. But I used 001 for a long time, dumped all of my liquid strains and have been using 05. I prefer 05 as the sediment in the bottle seems a little tighter and it seems to attenuate a little more too. I'm actually considering saving some and keeping it going when I'm ready to begin doing so again.

Maybe you ought to try making 2 very small test batches with the same basic recipe but using Cascade in one and Willamette in the other.

This jalapeño cream ale isn't exactly to style as it doesn't have corn products in it. It's more of a hybrid beer (pilsner LME and 2-row ale malts). It's been one of my better beers! I love it!

 

[JR_Brewer]

Looks pretty good overall. You could go with that, but here are my thoughts.

I do a cream ale, and mine leaves out any cara-malts and it uses an even split of 2-row and 6-row in addition to a pound of flaked corn/maze. I agree, the 2 row should have sufficient enzymes to convert the corn, but I use a blend anyway.

Your recipe seems pretty bitter... remember it's a very light beer. An ounce of cascade should be plenty, and use the rest for aroma at the end of the boil. I just use Saaz (lower alpha) and just 1 oz.

I havent' done PM for a cream ale. Using some dextrose seems like a good idea, maybe 10-25% of the DME (?).

Good luck!

 

[mcbar]

Carapils vs dextrose, nottingham vs us-05, cascade vs willamette... At this rate I think I'm going to need to do an 8 batch side-by-side! This is actually really good. I think experimenting with a clean tasting beer (and holding other variables constant) will be a good way to learn for myself how different ingredients affect the finished product.

I think you guys might be right about it coming out too bitter. I'm going to take a look at using liberty or willamette. We'll see what the LHBS has in stock.

About the dextrose... would substituting some of the LME for dextrose have the same effect as say, reducing the barley and adding some rice to the grain bill? (Different sugars, but both highly fermentable without changing the body of the beer).

 

[rodwha]

It's not the Cascade that will make it bitter, but the amount used at 60 mins.

Do you use a brew calculator?

 

[rodwha]

I ran this through Brewtoad and get about 4.5% ABV (using US-05) and 35 IBU's assuming the AA's are about the same and a full boil, as well as the same IBU calculator (I'm not sure why they are different or which is more common, but I think it's set on Tinseth).

 

[Paradingbull]

Cream ale is popular at our house. I do a similar recipe except use 1Lb Vienna instead of carapils. I only do a single 1 oz addition of Glacier pellets @ 55 min. Gives an IBU of around 13. Had success with both WLP080 and US-05 yeasts. Have tried playing with more hops but we always come back to the single Glacier addition. Happy Brewing!

 

[rodwha]

Were you to use 3/4 oz at 60 mins and 1/4 oz at 5 mins it would give you closer to 18 IBU's. But there are still several variables such as the AA's yours has, the boil volume/top off, and the total volume (I assumed this is a 5 gal batch), and the IBU calculator type.

 

[mcbar]

Yes, I generally use brewtoad. I haven't checked that the AA's listed as defaults are the same as what my LHBS stocks, so I'm not sure how accurate my calculations have been. Worth checking before I get started.

Is 35 absurdly high?

Edit: At this point I think I'm definitely going to scale the IBU's back a bit. Thanks for all your suggestions on this!

 

[RM-MN]

I'll be bottling. My plan is to give it two weeks or until fermentation is complete in the primary, then rack it to a glass carboy and give it a couple weeks in my makeshift icebox. My understanding is that the gelatin is added shortly before bottling, is that correct? If I add warm gelatin to lower than room temperature beer, is it going to work or will it precipitate out right away?

I've never used irish moss or whirfloc - is it as simple as just tossing it in at the end of the boil? I really don't have experience with finings because personally I prefer a bit of cloudiness

As for squeezing the bag - I thought one was never ever supposed to do that! Doesn't that extract tannins? Any other suggestions on keeping the mash as clear as possible?

Thanks again!

If you can squeeze the bag hard enough to extract tannins I want to hire you to be my shop press. Can you squeeze over 100 tons?:cross:

Seriously, extracting tannins requires too high of a pH plus temperatures over 170. As long as you keep the pH in line, you won't extract tannins.

If you ferment Nottingham at the bottom of it's preferred range it won't throw off esters. Try it at 59 - 60.

 

[RM-MN]

Yes, I generally use brewtoad. I haven't checked that the AA's listed as defaults are the same as what my LHBS stocks, so I'm not sure how accurate my calculations have been. Worth checking before I get started.

Is 35 absurdly high?

Edit: At this point I think I'm definitely going to scale the IBU's back a bit. Thanks for all your suggestions on this!

I think I would prefer 25 or even less in this light colored beer.

 

[mcbar]

If you can squeeze the bag hard enough to extract tannins I want to hire you to be my shop press. Can you squeeze over 100 tons?:cross:

Seriously, extracting tannins requires too high of a pH plus temperatures over 170. As long as you keep the pH in line, you won't extract tannins.

Wow, thanks for clearing that up. From day one just about everything I've read or heard about brewing with grain has started and ended with FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T SQUEEZE THE BAG!

So squeezing the bag is ok? That would certainly help keep my post boil volume on track, and make sure I get as much sugar into my wort as possible.

It's funny how brewing seems to have its own set of superstitions and mythologies. I wonder where this stuff comes from.

 

[rodwha]

Bruited shows 15-20 IBU's for the style.

I squeeze the bag too, as well as the hop bags.

 

[mcbar]

Bruited shows 15-20 IBU's for the style.

I squeeze the bag too, as well as the hop bags.

Cool, maybe I'll check the AA of the hops I have access to and play with the calculator. I'll shoot for 20 and see how it comes out.

Once I tinker a bit I'm going edit my first post with an updated recipe. Thanks again to all of you for your help! Can't wait to start working on this one.

 

[mcbar]

Brew day today. Updated my op with changes to the recipe. Wish me luck!

Edit: Final volume was a little high, or efficiency was lower than expected. OG came in at 1.042. I pitched a little on the warm side, but other than that things went smoothly.

 

[mcbar]

I gave the beer 12 days in the primary at about 60 degrees ambient temperature in my makeshift icebox. Then I took it out of the icebox and gave it another 2 days at room temperature. Then I racked it into a glass carboy and gave it 3 weeks (minus two days) at around 53 degrees ambient temperature (bearing in mind some fluctuations since I'm only controlling the temperature by adding ice or propping the lid of the freezer open).

Today I brought the temperature down to 50. Hydrometer reading showed 1.010 - pretty close to my target FG, especially considering I fermented at the cooler end of the yeast's comfort zone. The beer was super clear - probably a combination of the whirlfloc and the pseudo-cold crash. Pretty tasty too if I do say so myself I probably didn't need to use gelatin, but I decided to go for it to familiarize myself with the technique more than anything.

The carboy is now sitting on my counter at room temperature waiting to be bottled on Saturday. I'm thinking I'm gonna give this one a good four weeks to carbonate - in theory anyways. We'll see how well my patience holds up!

Edit: Just realized that, due to the low temperature of my beer, the FG is probably lower than what I read. Maybe 1.009? I'll check again before I bottle.

 

[rodwha]

Were it me I'd give it 3 weeks to condition followed by 1 week in the fridge to carbonate. It's somewhat common to cold-condition/"lager" a cream ale.

 

[mcbar]

Were it me I'd give it 3 weeks to condition followed by 1 week in the fridge to carbonate. It's somewhat common to cold-condition/"lager" a cream ale.

That makes sense - thanks for the suggestion!

 

[lazarwolf]

Time for an update on the PM Cream ale adventure...

 

[mcbar]

Time for an update on the PM Cream ale adventure...

It turned out great, definitely one of my most popular batches. It came out very clear, light bodied but flavorful with balanced hoppy bitterness and a dry finish. Not particularly exotic, but very drinkable - perfect for converting BMC drinkers to homebrew

I only have a few bottles left, but I'll see if I can remember to upload a picture.

This recipe will definitely find a place in my rotation. Until I get better temperature control it will probably be a winter brew because of the amount of ice required. Next time I may try cutting out the dextrose and increasing the rest of the grain bill just for fun.

 

[rodwha]

Is cutting out the dextrose the only thing you'd change?

You may want to try leaving some in the fridge for a month to test against one that's sat there a more typical time to see if you really notice it worthwhile if you didnt. Mine don't typically sit there more than a few weeks as I have too many different types o beer to rotate and we fight over the space with her usually winning.

 

[mcbar]

Is cutting out the dextrose the only thing you'd change?

You may want to try leaving some in the fridge for a month to test against one that's sat there a more typical time to see if you really notice it worthwhile if you didnt. Mine don't typically sit there more than a few weeks as I have too many different types o beer to rotate and we fight over the space with her usually winning.

I may play around with the hops - but only because this beer makes for a great testing ground. The hoppiness of this batch was spot on.

I would leave the carapils alone. The beer was light and smooth but had more body which set it apart nicely from from an average BMC. Like home made bread vs store bought.

I think the flaked corn achieved it's intended effect. I've seen some very popular recipes that include flaked rice as well. I will probably stick to corn in the future.

I guess I might skip the LME and go all grain next time - my efficiency has improved over the last few batches to the point where I think I can get consistent results

 

[mcbar]

I ended up finding one last bottle in my stash! Here's what the finished product looked like.