Scent and taste of barrel aged stouts

[Gorm]

I have been brewing for a while and am fairly successful in pales ipas stout and fruit beers.

when I have epic fails is trying to get the scent and taste flavor of barrel aged stouts like Uncle Jacobs from Avery or little panther from founders.
I use my own wood, kiln and toast it, soak in the same type of bourbon and they are fine stouts, but that scent and taste is elusive.

hard to explain except it’s a thick, rich scent that makes me not want to drink it just smell. It’s not what some call horse sweat or tobacco cause I’ve been either using tobacco or been in farming and been far in most of my life. But it’s there and I would like to duplicate it.

ideas?

 

[madscientist451]

Commercial producers are using many barrels and may also being using staves placed in stainless steel tanks. Their product involves lots of blending, tasting and blending some more. They are likely also blending in beer that hasn't had any wood exposure.
Your choice of wood will make a big difference. You can keep it simple by using Jack Daniel's barrel chips which are sold for smoking meat, I've used them with beer/cider and the results are pretty good. You can toast them some or use as they are.
Fine tune your aroma /flavor by placing the wood in a jar of bourbon and letting it sit a few weeks or a few months. Then perform bench trials by using a measured amount of beer, say 2-4 oz and using a pipette to add measured amounts of the bourbon to your beer. Some will say just adding the bourbon produces a "one dimensional" flavor note, so if you don't have barrels, you can use a corny keg and add staves/cubes/chips.

 

[Elric]

How long are you leaving your beer in contact with the wood? Most of the professional breweries are leaving for an absolute minimum of 6 months and most are between 8-12 months and some even longer. I know most homebrew wood hacks involve a mich shorter period of time and it won't get the same depth of flavor.
I've also seen several interviews discussing the process some of them, and most of them say that the beers being made for barrel aging are pretty much undrinkable when they go into the barrel as they have been brewed to allow for the mellowing of a number of flavor elements over time. You also have to consider the oxidative properties of being in wood for extended periods and the flavor changes it imparts and figure out a way to replicate that with your own setup.
All in all, there is a reason the barrel aged beers sell at such a premium, as there is a lot more involved with them.

 

[kevin58]

Time. A lot of it has to do with time spent in contact with the wood.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

Invest in a barrel.
I paid $100 for my last 10 gallon barrel that previously had rye whiskey in it.
It currently has its fourth beer in it.
RIS, Old Ale, Belgian Quad, Belgian Golden Strong.
I need to pull the last one and brew another for it.

 

[SanPancho]

Invest in a barrel.
I paid $100 for my last 10 gallon barrel that previously had rye whiskey in it.
It currently has its fourth beer in it.
RIS, Old Ale, Belgian Quad, Belgian Golden Strong.
I need to pull the last one and brew another for it.

where'd you find the little barrel?

 

[Dr_Jeff]

Black Patch Distilling in Madison, Alabama

 

[Dr_Jeff]

The first two came from Sons of Liberty distilling in Rhode Island.
Barrel was $100 and $50 for shipping.

 

[mashpaddled]

How long are you leaving your beer in contact with the wood? Most of the professional breweries are leaving for an absolute minimum of 6 months and most are between 8-12 months and some even longer. I know most homebrew wood hacks involve a mich shorter period of time and it won't get the same depth of flavor.
I've also seen several interviews discussing the process some of them, and most of them say that the beers being made for barrel aging are pretty much undrinkable when they go into the barrel as they have been brewed to allow for the mellowing of a number of flavor elements over time. You also have to consider the oxidative properties of being in wood for extended periods and the flavor changes it imparts and figure out a way to replicate that with your own setup.
All in all, there is a reason the barrel aged beers sell at such a premium, as there is a lot more involved with them.

All of this plus stave/cube oak additions just aren't the same as the inside of a barrel. For one the bourbon in the barrel is not proofed down or adjusted with any packaging products (glycerin, coloring, etc.) so it's not exactly the same as what you buy in a bottle generally. The higher proof alcohol also extracts differently from beer or lower proof bourbon so you're getting a different set of flavor compounds in the wood. The amount of wood contacting the beer in a barrel is way more than most people use with cubes or staves. To obtain a comparable amount of oak surface per gallon you need several times what typical recipes suggest--probably for good reason. The cubes are cut differently and not charred as aggressively so you risk pulling way more tannin and flavor out of the wood than in a barrel which is all cut along the grain.

Also, specifically to the point of a tobacco-like flavor is the amount of char in the barrels. If you've ever seen a barrel dumped even after several uses there is always more char coming out. I have a two gallon whisky barrel which is on its tenth beer and I've steamed it halfway through that journey and every time I dump out the trub there's more char. The carbon is acting like a filter to a small extent but it's also adding those burnt, tobacco, molasses type notes when diluted in the beer. I've never seen homebrewing products do the same thing. I think this is a big reason why we never get the right flavors out of oak byproducts. A poorly explored issue in homebrewing for sure.

 

[bobeer]

the best I've have homebrew wise was with an oak spiral. You get more surface area touching the beer and you don't have a million chips to worry about. I've used a white oak spiral in an IPA and it turned out great. of course white oak is a little different than the boozy toasted oak taste you're after but maybe it might get you closer if you try a spiral. Maybe giving it your own toasting and soaking it in whatever spirit you want will help. Good luck.

 

[Gorm]

I make sticks about the size of a pencil usually 4-5 inches long, white oak, and toasted but not charred.

they make great beers so I think the next time I will try charring and keeping the beer on the oak for 5 month instead of 1-3 .

not interested in mixing my beer with others , useing glycerin or spending 150 on a barrel.

thanks everyone for the reply’s. Nice to be here.

 

[bwible]

I have been brewing for a while and am fairly successful in pales ipas stout and fruit beers.

when I have epic fails is trying to get the scent and taste flavor of barrel aged stouts like Uncle Jacobs from Avery or little panther from founders.
I use my own wood, kiln and toast it, soak in the same type of bourbon and they are fine stouts, but that scent and taste is elusive.

hard to explain except it’s a thick, rich scent that makes me not want to drink it just smell. It’s not what some call horse sweat or tobacco cause I’ve been either using tobacco or been in farming and been far in most of my life. But it’s there and I would like to duplicate it.

ideas?

Sounds like you are enjoying the smell more than the taste. Yeah I’ve made some like that.

Well, first, you really just can’t go to Home Depot and buy “any” wood. Some of them are treated with chemicals and are not suitable for food use. Most of the time, barrels are made of oak. There are different oaks. Bourbon, by law, must be aged in new American White Oak barrels. So if you’re trying to clone a bourbon barrel beer, thats a good place to start. Then there is French Oak, Hungarian Oak, and others. The barrels whiskey is aged in are charred and burned on the inside. So the oak is sold in “toast” levels. Light , medium, or heavy toast. Most of the compounds we get from the wood have flavors and smells we would describe as vanilla, carmel, or tobacco. Maybe leather. There are other words but those are the biggest ones for me.

You don’t really need to buy a barrel. You can buy oak chips, oak cubes, oak spirals, etc from a homebrew shop. I feel safer using these than my own wood. For my money, the oak cubes work the best. Because its about surface area exposed to the beer. Oak cubes soaked in your favorite bourbon for a couple of weeks will do the trick. I start with about 3/4 of an ounce of oak cubes per gallon. Thats actually a good bit. I like a mixture of medium and heavy toast.

 

[Gorm]

I cut down my own white oak, dry it then split. Toast till slightly charred. Defiantly get vanilla and wood/oak taste and some aroma, jus t not what I want.

I also do the same with sugar maple tho the wood is toasted till it is a dark tan. Toss 4 oz of that into a stout for a month and I get more maple flavor than any amount of syrup.