Saison tips

[Zanian]

Hi guys, so I'm brewing a Saison tomorrow and I was looking for some advice. I've brewed a Saison before, straight from Radical Brewing that turned out really well. I have a second batch of it fermenting now but I wanted to try something different tomorrow. The Saison I had before was very full-bodied and there was a lot going on in terms of fruitiness, spiciness and in terms of the malt. I've spent a lot of time in Belgium drinking Saisons and I really like ones with a simple malt characteristic and a dry finish (much like Dupont). I find orange zest and even sometimes coriander to be too much.

So, I've made a recipe that attempts to increase the Pilsen while not compromising too much on the malt characteristic but I think I might want to cut more on the Munich. I know Dupont brews 100% Pilsen (I also have Dingemans) but I don't attempt to clone their version, especially since this time I'm using WLP566 instead of 565. Would I be safe to drop the black pepper, coriander and maybe even the munich without finishing with a beer that is strong, has a heavy alcohol taste and is lacking in flavour? Should I instead maybe sub out the brown sugar for table sugar? Instead of mashing at 156f and using sugar to dry it out, should I maybe cut back on sugar and mash lower? I'm really open to any suggestions but I just find it very difficult to put all the info in the forums together as there are so many varying opinions on what a Saison should and shouldn't be.

Est Original Gravity: 1.062 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.009 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.9 %
Bitterness: 39.3 IBUs
Est Color: 10.4 EBC

Mash: 156f for 60 mins.

4.00 kg Pilsen (Dingemans) (3.2 EBC) 65.6 %
1.00 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) 16.4 %
0.55 kg Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) 9.0 %
0.55 kg Brown Sugar, Light (15.8 EBC) 9.0 %
25.00 g Northern Brewer [6.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min 18.7 IBUs
40.00 g Saaz [3.90 %] - Boil 30.0 min 13.2 IBUs
67.65 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min 7.4 IBUs
20.00 g Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins)
1.00 g Black Pepper (Boil 5.0 mins)
1.0 pkg Belgian Saison II Yeast (White Labs #WLP566) [50.28 ml]

Sorry everything is in Metric
Thanks!!

 

[catdaddy66]

Use Belle Saison yeast and it will have it bone dry (<1.005) in no time flat! It also has milder flavors than some other yeast profiles so the malt may be more noticeable.

I have done 3 saisons with it and have not gotten a bad beer yet.

 

[Queequeg]

I have used 3711 before in the past but generally been unhappy with the flavour profile, I tend to get lots of banana and bubblegum and less spice, phenols or barnyard.

I am currently fermenting a dark saision with 3724 and wlp565.

I am not using an airlock just foil to avoid back pressure.

I have done 48 hours at 18C and today am ramping to 35C.

I will add sugar on about day 5 to dry the beer out.

General tips, use plenty of healthy yeast, use yeast nutrient,oxygenate well, ramp temp aggressively, use a significant amount of sugar to dry the beer, rye is you best friend, use spices modestly

 

[Queequeg]

As for your recipe it looks pretty good. I would be tempted to sub the munich for more pilsner and blend a couple of yeast strains as a said on is really a yeast centric style.

 

[Morrey]

I have used a variety of Saison yeasts including 3711, 3031 and Belle Saison dry. Belle Saison is generally less expensive and gives me the results I like from an attenuation standpoint and the dryness I achieve. Plus it is easy to rehydrate and use on the fly skipping a starter. If you already have the 566, you are golden and can always try Belle Saison next time as a comparison.

Mashing high (156F) like you propose may give you longer sugar chains that typical sacch yeasts won't use as available food sources, meaning you may have a sweeter Saison than you may find desirable. Some of this will depend on your tastes, but sometimes higher mash temps are called for when Brett yeast is involved. I may be wrong but I think the strain you listed is all sacch yeast.

 

[Morrey]

I have used 3711 before in the past but generally been unhappy with the flavour profile, I tend to get lots of banana and bubblegum and less spice, phenols or barnyard.

Same here, I am not a fan of this strain

 

[Weezy]

566 has worked well for me. Especially if you have a term chamber that you can bump the temps up.

I'd ditch the brown sugar. Molasses isn't something you want or need in a saison.

Hops are unconventional and malt bill is more complex as well, but it should still taste good.

 

[Kent88]

First, this thebrewingnetwork podcast is helpful. To skip the sillyness, go to the 12-minute mark.

I've brewed saison a couple times, the things I make sure to do when I brew this style

If I'm brewing for an event, I brew it with more than 6 weeks until the event. I want to give myself time to make sure it reaches my target FG before I bottle.

Mash for 90 minutes, preferably keeping it around 149F but going up to 152F if it needs to because 90 minutes is a long time to hold temperature and sometimes you just need to overshoot it a little.

I use Wyeast's Belgian Saison strain. I've heard it is a picky strain, but I haven't had issues with it yet.

I try to keep the fermentation temperature just below 70F through krausen, then I let it free rise to room temp for a week before I use a heating pad to bump the temperature up even further.

Edit: Something I plan to do in the future. I've been hearing that a beta sacch' rest (high 140F range) is only good for about 45 minutes, so I plan to start bumping up my mash temp to about 156F after 50 minutes to try and get the alpha enzyme to be a little more active.

 

[Zanian]

So here is the updated recipe. Removed some Munich, added Pilsen, lowered mash, removed the spices and changed the sugar to a light candi (homemade). Should I just use table sugar instead and should I dump it in primary or kettle? Also, I don't have anything but WLP566 (starter made) so I'll have to stick with that.


4.25 kg Pilsen (Dingemans) (3.2 EBC) Grain 4 69.1 %
0.80 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 5 13.0 %
0.55 kg Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 6 8.9 %
0.55 kg Candi Sugar, Clear (1.0 EBC) Sugar 7 8.9 %
25.00 g Northern Brewer [6.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 18.9 IBUs
40.00 g Saaz [3.90 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 9 13.3 IBUs
67.65 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil Hop 10 7.5 IBUs
1.0 pkg Belgian Saison II Yeast (White Labs #WLP Yeast 13 -



Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 6.10 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 14.47 l of water at 76.7 C 68.9 C 45 min

Thanks for all the great replies!

Edit: I might swap out the EKG for more Saaz, thoughts?

 

[brewstergalVT]

If I'm not too late, good idea to swap out EKG for Saaz. I'm a fan of WLP566 and I find that fermenting it on the cooler side (high 60's to 70F) gives more pepper and no clove yet still gives plenty of esters when fermented cool. When I've fermented above 70F with this yeast I get too much clove which overwhelms the esters and pepper.

I usually mash at 150-152F and my Saisons ferment out lower than your estimate of 1.009, even when I don't add sugar.

I've found that l don't like Munich in my Saisons and only like a small amount of Vienna (like the amount you list for Munich) to complement the Pilsner malt.

I use about 8-10 AAU for boiling hops (depends on the gravity) with some finishing hops and my beers ferment out well and I bottle for high carbonation so the perception of the beer is quite dry and bitter. About 4 ounces of acidulated malt also helps, not just with pH but also with the crispness.

 

[Zanian]

Thanks brewstergal! I swapped the EKG and I think I'll add some Acidulated malt I have lying around but I actually don't have any Vienna right now. I think I'll just drop the Munich down a bit and raise the Pilsner. I'm also worried it will be too malty with the Munich so that might help a bit. Good idea with the fermentation tip, I wasn't sure how to approach the yeast as I haven't used it before.

 

[Morrey]

I'll add some Acidulated malt I have lying around

Do you adjust your ph and water chemistry before mashing? If you end up using acid malts consider this will bring your mash ph down possibly to the point of being too low if unaccounted for with your chemistry additions. This may be a moot point if you use RO water and skip additions.

 

[Zanian]

I didn't end up putting in any acidualted in there, I also didn't really have enough but yes, I adjust my PH as well.