Rocket Fuel

[Owly055]

I made up a batch of rocket fuel this morning to put into my next brew. 2.5 pounds of sugar in 2 cups of water with 1/3 teaspoon of cream of tarter..... Cooked down to 122F to create 2.5 pints of inverted sugar syrup.

The purpose is "pure research".... To bump the gravity of a brew that I found exceptionally good up to about double with a fermentable that should contribute no flavor whatever. There should be virtually no unfermentables from the sugar, and the yeast should be able to consume it easily. I'll add the syrup in a couple of increments after fermentation has slowed down. My hope is that the resulting brew will be very similar to the "control".....

I'm assuming that the bittering balance will not be effected by the increase in OG, but that the charts are really based on body which is a function of unfermentable sugars. This is the first step on the road to an extreme beer with an ABV of over 20%.

I chose to use table sugar and invert it as it is significantly cheaper than corn sugar, and as I will be making a syrup anyway, it just makes sense to invert table sugar for this job. Inverted table sugar is chemically more or less identical to the sugar profile of honey. The viscosity of this syrup is less than honey... I didn't want to run the boil up to around 130 which would put it about there..... and heavier than corn syrup. Sugar can be inverted using citric acid, or lemon juice..... citric acid is more common. When table sugar is inverted a chemical reaction takes place where the sucrose is converted to glucose and fructose, both of which are far more useable by yeast. Yeast must break the sucrose down to utilize it.

Isn't it great to be able to read up on stuff without having to go to the library every time........... You can find out almost anything on the net these days.


H.W.

 

[giraffe]

Well good luck with that. A couple of things come to mind in the hypothetical. Ethanol has a "flavor" of its own. Just cause the base beer tastes good, does not mean it will be in balance with a lot more of a alcohol flavor. Ive used up to 30% clear invert before in a belgian golden strong, but theres alot of yeast esters to meld with it, and that seemed to be pushing it. You are talking close to 50%. Id be interested in your results, but due to the ethanol and yeast stress at higher alcohol %, I am pessimistic it will taste similar to the base beer. (and while it is a different process, but as an analogy, pbr and colt 45 dont taste the same.)

 

[chickens4life]

My advice would be increase pitch rate, use lots of O2 and nutrient. Also ferment as cold as possible without stalling ferment for the first few days at least, this will reduce ester production as well as keeping the yeast from spreading the nutrient reserves and membrane components to thin through excess reproduction.
Otherwise from experience you will have way more esters in comparison to the control beer (based on my own experience).

 

[Owly055]

Well good luck with that. A couple of things come to mind in the hypothetical. Ethanol has a "flavor" of its own. Just cause the base beer tastes good, does not mean it will be in balance with a lot more of a alcohol flavor. Ive used up to 30% clear invert before in a belgian golden strong, but theres alot of yeast esters to meld with it, and that seemed to be pushing it. You are talking close to 50%. Id be interested in your results, but due to the ethanol and yeast stress at higher alcohol %, I am pessimistic it will taste similar to the base beer. (and while it is a different process, but as an analogy, pbr and colt 45 dont taste the same.)

This is exactly what I'm trying to determine..... Do I need more unfermentables to mask the alcohol......... I'm feeling my way here by trial and error. I don't want the beer to taste like rocket fuel. It's also been said that age makes a difference in toning down the alcohol bite. This is part of a process of working toward something decent with a high ABV.


H.W.

 

[Owly055]

My advice would be increase pitch rate, use lots of O2 and nutrient. Also ferment as cold as possible without stalling ferment for the first few days at least, this will reduce ester production as well as keeping the yeast from spreading the nutrient reserves and membrane components to thin through excess reproduction.
Otherwise from experience you will have way more esters in comparison to the control beer (based on my own experience).

I'll do what I can as far as aeration......... I'm already set up to do an outrageous pitch, and I'll throw some nutrient in. By the next brew I will be prepared to do a better job of aeration. I'll be pitching in about 15 minutes. Thanks for the input.


H.W.

 

[Psylocide]

What kind of beer is the base?

Something light is definitely going to be off-balance, maybe a thicker/sweeter stout may not be affected as much, but I have my doubts.

It'll be an interesting test I suppose. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[Owly055]

What kind of beer is the base?

Something light is definitely going to be off-balance, maybe a thicker/sweeter stout may not be affected as much, but I have my doubts.

It'll be an interesting test I suppose. Let us know how it turns out.

100% munich base........ 6 pounds in a 2.5 gallon brew. Hopped at 55 IBUs.. SRM 21.5
Bittered with half an ounce of Magnum at 60min, Flavor and Aroma 5 minute additions of half an ounce each of Caliente and Nelson Sauvin............... Fermenting this one with USA-05. I'll have a more suitable yeast for the next experiment.


H.W.

 

[Homercidal]

Adding simple sugars will definitely change the flavor profile, and probably at that amount, quite a lot! You will likely lose some mouthfeel, as the alcohol to beer increases and dries the beer out. The alcohol will have it's own flavor as well. The yeasts may give different flavors due to the differing amounts of fermentables.

It will be an interesting experiment and I think you will be fine with it, but may need to tweak the recipe from just adding sugars in order to get it to taste close to the original.

 

[Psylocide]

As Homercidal said, that much simple sugar is going to lead to a very dry mouthfeel and strong alcohol flavor in this brew.

 

[giraffe]

What might be an interesting experiment to do after this is finished, would be take a pint of the base beer and add ethanol (everclear, etc) to hit the target ABV. This would be closest to your theoretical ideal. Then compare to the one with the invert added to the fermentation. This might tell you what flavors are from the ethanol itself interacting with the base beer, and what is from the yeast in different conditions.

 

[Owly055]

I had a disaster with my immersion chiller.... the hose blew off and dumped half a gallon of water into the brew making it 3 gallons instead of 2.5...... I'm obviously not going to hit the intended target of being a duplicate at a higher ABV at this point. It throws gravity off as well as hopping........ Oh well.

I have extremely high quality water and there is a good chance that there was no harm done to the brew aside from dilution. So, in order to pull the fat out of the fire so to speak, I'm going to boil up all the dark DME I have on hand which is slightly less than a pound, in some wort drawn from the fermenter which has 2.5 gallons in it, cool it and add it back. This will leave me shy of my target OG

This blows the direct comparison out of the wort....er, I mean water, but unless the beer is contaminated... which I doubt, it should still give me a good idea of what would happen.... Good enough that I should be able to make a decision on what I need to do. This is the first of a series of test brews intended to steer a course toward an ultra high gravity beer I like.

Not my first brewing "disaster".... I have had good success recovering from disaster, and fortunately had tools to do it with.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

What might be an interesting experiment to do after this is finished, would be take a pint of the base beer and add ethanol (everclear, etc) to hit the target ABV. This would be closest to your theoretical ideal. Then compare to the one with the invert added to the fermentation. This might tell you what flavors are from the ethanol itself interacting with the base beer, and what is from the yeast in different conditions.

Good idea.....

 

[madscientist451]

Adding your invert sugar is a great experiment. If you want to make a beer is really drinkable, you need to balance your alcohol level with the malt flavors, yeast character, and the various hop bitterness and flavor components. A good place to start is the Belgian type beers like a trippel or quad that use candi sugar in the recipe. Also note that using
sugar to bump up the alcohol will mean that you need to age the beer for a while, maybe up to 6 months to soften the harsh flavors produced.
I like the idea of a control beer to compare it to, great project, good luck!

 

[Owly055]

Adding your invert sugar is a great experiment. If you want to make a beer is really drinkable, you need to balance your alcohol level with the malt flavors, yeast character, and the various hop bitterness and flavor components. A good place to start is the Belgian type beers like a trippel or quad that use candi sugar in the recipe. Also note that using
sugar to bump up the alcohol will mean that you need to age the beer for a while, maybe up to 6 months to soften the harsh flavors produced.
I like the idea of a control beer to compare it to, great project, good luck!

What I'm thinking from your comment is that ultimately the road to a balanced high octane beer will involve a significant amount of crystal. The dark Munich in this brew makes for a rich flavor. It may be that the "hot alcohol" flavor of a high gravity brew will not work well with the IBUs I'm working with ... About 55 in this case....... Like sour and bitter, which clearly clash as I've found in experimental brews.
The whole idea of the "control" is to assess how these things play together. I'm kind of disappointed about my train wreck... It sort of kills the direct comparison........ But oh well, it's an excuse to brew again ;-). This was brew 14 for 2015...........

I was aware of the age thing, and had planned on at least a few months... kind of tough as my "pipeline" doesn't have enough bottles. All my bottles are EzCaps.... I made the decision early on to use them exclusively, but it's a significant investment. Fortunately someone gave me some of those green Grolsch bottles, which I haven't put into service yet. The turn around time is an issue when one is doing a comparison.... A 6 month turnaround could make this a project of several years. I'm wondering if there is a way to "artificially age" a brew. what processes are taking place and how can they be facilitated. Aging whiskey in barrels involves temperature and pressure changes over a period of time moving the whiskey in and out of the wood, and that can be accelerated.. but beer is another matter. In sealed bottles, the process has to be entirely chemical, between the components. Most chemical processes are accelerated by temperature. Temperature and temperature changes, and agitation are about the only tools available under those circumstances.
There probably is at least one article on the net on the topic...........

H.W.

 

[giraffe]

What I'm thinking from your comment is that ultimately the road to a balanced high octane beer will involve a significant amount of crystal.

Dont know if that is true assumption necessarily. If you look at many styles that are in the 10%+ range there isnt much if any crystal traditionally. Belgian tripels/golden strong/dark strong, Barleywines, eisbocks, english style RIS.

 

[Owly055]

Dont know if that is true assumption necessarily. If you look at many styles that are in the 10%+ range there isnt much if any crystal traditionally. Belgian tripels/golden strong/dark strong, Barleywines, eisbocks, english style RIS.

Color and body come from somewhere........ Color can only come from toasting or roasting malts or grains. There are quite a few crystal malts out there with names that suggest that they are something else. I recently bought a 55 pound sack of German Munich 20 because I like the color and flavor it offers, without the body that crystal lends to a beer. A "light" dark beer you might say... ;-)


H.W.

 

[Homercidal]

Crystals are (today) normally used in a variety of high octane styles, but if you want a lighter beer, you must avoid them, or at least overusing them.

Belgian Strong Ales are usually made with less crystal and more sugar. What sugar you use has some affect on the look and taste of the finished beer, but it always lightens the body.

You can get some darkness and dark flavors from sugars. But there is wider range of flavors available in crystal. A lot of darker Belgian strong beers will use some crystal to impart flavor and will also use sugar to lighten the body and up the ABV.

There isn't any real correlation between high octane and crystal. You can make a light, high ABV beer using minimal (or no) crystal, a lot of base malt, and a fair amount of sugar.

 

[Owly055]

Crystals are (today) normally used in a variety of high octane styles, but if you want a lighter beer, you must avoid them, or at least overusing them.

Belgian Strong Ales are usually made with less crystal and more sugar. What sugar you use has some affect on the look and taste of the finished beer, but it always lightens the body.

You can get some darkness and dark flavors from sugars. But there is wider range of flavors available in crystal. A lot of darker Belgian strong beers will use some crystal to impart flavor and will also use sugar to lighten the body and up the ABV.

There isn't any real correlation between high octane and crystal. You can make a light, high ABV beer using minimal (or no) crystal, a lot of base malt, and a fair amount of sugar.

Good point.... But... Using a lot of base malt, means either using a significant amount of DME, or concentrating the wort with a very long boil. Of course a lot of base malt will inevitably result in more unfermentables per gallon, and increase the body.....

......unless you do some creative things with the mash. By creative things, I mean mashing fairly high, then reducing the temp into the 140's, and adding amylase, and holding the mash in that range for an extended period to achieve maximum fermentability. (I've done this several times for very dry beers.... it works).

I sort of think that a fairly heavy body with a significant crystal presence would mask the high gravity somewhat......


H.W.

 

[Owly055]

I am about at the end of "primary" with my brew using "rocket fuel". I tasted the brew, and it is still fairly heavy in body, and has an intense alcohol taste..... which to me as a whiskey drinker is not offensive. The body is my concern here, I'm wondering how much of this will ferment out in the next week or two. ABV currently is about 10%.

I went to the LHBS looking for WLP 099 yesterday, and they have no White Labs products. That means that if I want any WLP yeasts, I'll have to pay shipping. The guy handed me a packet of Still Spirits Distiller's Yeast (Rum), and said "try this".......... I'm reluctant after reading the description on line. It has Amyloglucosidase enzyme included with it, which has a potential for drying out a beer. In the case of this beer, I may just pitch some later to knock the sweetness and body down. A fungal amylase might also be of use for this.......but I don't have any. Problem is I don't want the resulting brew to be too dry..... It's at least a week too soon to even think about anything like that.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't!! Remedial Brewing ;-)


H.W.

 

[Homercidal]

If you don't want a really thin beer, you might stay away from any enzyme product. As you may or mat not know, distillers don't give a crap about body. It sounds as though the supply shop guy doesn't understand your needs well enough.

 

[Owly055]

If you don't want a really thin beer, you might stay away from any enzyme product. As you may or mat not know, distillers don't give a crap about body. It sounds as though the supply shop guy doesn't understand your needs well enough.

This is more or less the conclusion I had arrived at........... This was not the usual LHBS person, who had gone home for the day, but a young guy who is himself a home brewer. Not somebody who's judgment I put great stock into. That said, it could be useful in reducing the body if an when I decide it has too much body. It's way too early to draw any conclusions, only a week into fermentation, though it is at the projected FG of 1.020, and ABV of over 11%. I suspect that the 05 has "hit the wall" more or less, as it is floculating nicely. Made with 100% dark Munich, 6 pounds in a 2.5 gallon brew, and hopped with Magnum for bittering, and Nelson and Calliente, half an ounce of each at 5 minutes, it's a very tasty brew with a strong malt "backbone" from the Munich.

Note: I just rechecked my FG after letting things settle for a few hours..... The actual reading is 1.015........ I can't see it going much below that.... I'm currently drinking the hydrometer sample, and finding it quite rich and very alcoholic...... Definitely NOT thin and dry in spite of the large amount of invert sugar... about 30% of the fermentables. My initial reaction is that it's a fairly heavy beer, though 6 pounds of Munich in a 2.5 gallon brew does not make a "heavy" beer normally. I'm tempted to copy this brew, but increase the invert sugar enough to hit 15% or so with it..... when I get my hands on a suitable yeast, just to compare the apparent "weight". I'm thinking that the alcohol itself lends a perceived sweetness. This definitely will not be a "session beer"........ A hydrometer sample has given me a bit of a buzz!!


(blue text posted later as an edit)
H.W.

 

[Owly055]

I just opened the first bottle of my Rocket Fuel. It's about 3 months old. This is not the artificially aged version. ABV is about 11.%. Flavor is good, the alcohol does not overwhelm the rest of the flavor.... which was a surprise.... I expected an unpleasantly strong alcohol taste...... It doesn't exist. It seems sweet to my taste..... something I didn't expect. It has that pleasant warmth that spreads in your belly, like a good whiskey. Bottle conditioning did NOT happen, so perhaps the sweetness is from priming. I force carbonated this.

This is not a beer you drink by the pint...... or even 12 oz. It's clearly a "cordial" . Half a 12 ounce whiskey tumbler is plenty at a sitting. I'm disappointed with the sweetness. I'd hoped for a much drier product. There is probably a positive side to the sweetness.......I suspect it masks the kick ass alcohol. It pours with a thin head, which is very persistent. I seems to last the very end.

I will not even attempt to bottle condition the next batch of rocket fuel..................

Today I will force carbonate a bottle of my artificially aged Rocket Fuel for comparison. I'm dealing with 1L bottles, and using my bottle carbonater .... described in another post.

The lesson from this first attempt at Rocket Fuel is that I should use less grain to reduce the perceived sweetness....... And of course forget bottle conditioning.


H.W.

 

[WI_Wino]

To my palate, ethanol has a sweet taste (even with everclear once you get past the burn). I would wager if you increased the bitterness of your base beer some, that would counter the increased sweetness from the rocket fuel you blended in and have it taste more like the unadulterated beer. I personally would not reduce the amount of grain as a first step. Sweetness and malt flavor don't always go hand in hand.

 

[Owly055]

To my palate, ethanol has a sweet taste (even with everclear once you get past the burn). I would wager if you increased the bitterness of your base beer some, that would counter the increased sweetness from the rocket fuel you blended in and have it taste more like the unadulterated beer. I personally would not reduce the amount of grain as a first step. Sweetness and malt flavor don't always go hand in hand.

Thanks......... I suspect that is sound advice. I may do another Rocket Fuel at 12% or so to work out this problem....... The target is 20% using WLP-099. No point in going there until I get it figured out. This was not tame in terms of IBUs....... at 55. I'm not into extreme IBUs. American IPAs are in my opinion "over the top". Mid 50s is an IPA to me. What level do you think is needed to overcome the sweetness.....I'm thinking perhaps 70??


H.W.

 

[WI_Wino]

That sounds reasonable to me, really all depends on how "sweet" it is to you.

 

[Owly055]

5 months ago I brewed this Rocked Fuel, and yesterday I force carbonted 1.5 gallons of it, and am sipping a glass of it as I write. At 12%, it's clearly a "whoop ass" brew. Unfortunately the sweetness or at least perceived sweetness is coming through quite strongly. Considering the fact that a 2.5 gallon brew used 6 pounds of Munich 20, and the remainder was invert sugar syrup, there is no reason for sweetness except the alcohol itself giving that perception. This was bittered with half an ounce of Magnum@60, and flavored with Calliente and Nelson, half an ounce each @5min. IBUs were 55 (approx).

Clearly I should have bittered into the 80's or 90's to counter the perceived sweetness. It blows my theory out of the water that balance IBU:OG should be based ONLY on grain derived gravity, in fact in this case the bittering should be far higher due to the aging process.

I propose the following for my next batch:

Brew as before, adding syrup throughout the fermentation, hop about the same for bittering, but far more for flavor and aroma.

Keg age, and dry hop a few days before transfering to a serving keg. Adjust IBUs to cut the sweetness using a hop shot......... A great deal of bitterness and flavor and aroma are lost during aging.


H.W.

Use a Hop Shot

 

[Homercidal]

What was the FG?

 

[m00ps]

Yeah, I think the FG may be the issue with the sweetness. Feeding wort thats like 50% simple sugar to yeast will make them gorge themse4lves on the simple sugar and be too lazy to properly ferment the complex sugars from the grains. This would lead to a very sweet final product.

 

[Owly055]

Yeah, I think the FG may be the issue with the sweetness. Feeding wort thats like 50% simple sugar to yeast will make them gorge themse4lves on the simple sugar and be too lazy to properly ferment the complex sugars from the grains. This would lead to a very sweet final product.

FG 1.015 ............... I added the sugar syrup a bit at a time as primary had "hit the wall" My additions were spaced out about 3 days apart........ 3 or 4 of them as I recall.


H.W.