Questioning efficiency

[OkanaganMike]

First time trying figure out how efficiency works and if this performance is normal or should be adjusted. I'll try and outline my steps best I can first.
Below is the recipe I tweaked.

Default All-Grain - Strong Scotch Ale
Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Nottingham - changed White Lab liquid- Edinbugh Scotch Ale as a yeast starter -

Batch Size (Gallons): 6 - changed to 5
Original Gravity: 1.074
Final Gravity: 1.018
IBU: 27
Boiling Time (Minutes): 80
Color: 17.8
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 9 days at 62 degrees
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 60 days at 55
Tasting Notes: Slightly sweet, malt, toffee, roasted nuts, coffee....super complex after primary.

14.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 81.16 % - Changed to 13.00lb
Added 1.00 lb Melenoidan Malt
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.80 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 5.80 %
1.00 lb Special Roast (50.0 SRM) Grain 5.80 %
0.15 lb Roasted Barley Malt (300.0 SRM) Grain 0.87 %
0.10 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 0.58 %
0.50 oz Chinook [11.80 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 15.2 IBU -changed to Williamette
0.50 oz Chinook [13.00 %] (30 min) Hops 11.7 IBU - changed to Williamette

BIAB single infusion method starting with 8.25gal No sparge.
Mash in @ 170F temp dropped to 160F by time everything stirred in, wrapped and covered.
Mashed 1 hr. Mashout to 170F for 10mins then drain and squeeze bag.
Preboil gravity 1.060 (temp adjusted)
Preboil wort collected 7.5gal
Gave boil an extra 20mins to bring wort amount down to about 6gal before chilling and draining. (Next time I'll make sure to have 6.5 gal in as I only collected 5 gal not 5.5).

According to Brewer's friend calculator..
Conversion efficiency = 80%
Preboil efficiency = 72%
End Kettle efficiency = 77%
Brewhouse efficiency = 64%

Does this seem right to you guys? Should I have sparged to bring up my efficiency? This was my 5th batch and have only just started trying to figure my efficiency out. Obviously I want to do the best I can, comments? Suggestions?

 

[Gavin C]

No something is wrong in your measures as your end kettle efficiency is higher than the preboil. These ought to be the same. No sugars are lost from the start to the end of the boil.

You only need to concern yourself with two efficiency numbers in my view.
1. Mash efficiency preboil volume and gravity measures needed.
2. Brew house efficiency. Volume to FV and OG are needed.

1 will tell you how effective your process is
2 will allow you to better formulate recipes and hit the target gravities and volumes.

For Brewers dumping the entire contents of the kettle into the FV these will be theoretically identical.

Your measures of efficiency are only as reliable as your measures of volume and gravity. Gravity readings should be measured at the calibration temperature of the hydrometer. Volumes in the kettle and or FV can be measured with accuracy if you plan ahead.

Measurement error is always present. If efficiency is something you want to target with a view to consistency, reducing these errors is key.

 

[C-Rider]

Did you take a trip? Why secondary for 60 days? Why secondary at all?

Sorry can't comment on your question I'm not a good mathematician. LOL

 

[Gavin C]

Unrelated to your question but a couple of things

Secondary. Any particular reason?
1 lb of Melenoiden is an awful lot
Your mash temp at 160 is very high. Never seen a recipe with such a high mash before.

As these are not related to your question I thought to just throw them out there. You have no doubt put time and effort into the recipe and I dint want to nitpick when that is not what you wanted from the thread. Like I said just some things to consider perhaps.

 

[OkanaganMike]

Unrelated to your question but a couple of things

Secondary. Any particular reason?
1 lb of Melenoiden is an awful lot
Your mash temp at 160 is very high. Never seen a recipe with such a high mash before.

As these are not related to your question I thought to just throw them out there. You have no doubt put time and effort into the recipe and I dint want to nitpick when that is not what you wanted from the thread. Like I said just some things to consider perhaps.

Gotta give props to Permo as this was based on his recipe. I added the Melenoiden in lieu of a pound of Marris Otter and Permo's decoction method as I was trying to avoid that step as I'm a one pot BIAB'er. Read a great thread called "Decoction vs. Melenoiden malt on this site and thought I'd try it out.

I think secondary is necessary as it would sit on the trub for 60days and thus receive off flavors from it.

Up to now, I've normally mashed in at 160 with grains at room temp and ambient temp around 6*C. It'll drop to 148-150F after the hour. This time, although ambient was a bit warmer, grain bill was much heavier and out in the garage overnight so were around 50F. Thought I'd better raise strike temp to accomodate the larger heat sink the grains would pose. Finished at 152F after the hour so I think it did ok.

As for the percentages, I used Brewer's friend but very well could have buggered up my recordings. Guess I don't need to know it as long as the beer is good but would like to try and understand so's I can talk the lingo to fellow Home Brewer's.

 

[Magnus314]

It looks like 7.5 gal Pre-boil @ 1.060 should boil down to 6 gal @ 1.070... seems pretty normal to me.

64% Brewhouse efficiency for a no-sparge 1.070 beer doesn't seem wrong in any way. Should taste great, actually! No sparge makes for awesome malty beers.

Did you really get 7.5 gals of preboil with only 8.25 in the whole mash? I usually lose about 0.1 gal/lb or so, you lost less than half that.

If that's what you're after, I suggest: 1) hold back two or three gallons for a sparge, 2) be a little more aggressive when racking/draining to the kettle, don't leave much liquid behind, and 3) test a finer crush.

I did a Belgian Blond with friend who doesn't have his own mill, and with a More Beer crush and a 60 minute mash + mash out we got 81% overall (Brewhouse) efficiency with a single sparge and leaving the trub cone behind.

And don't let 'em bust your chops about aging a strong ale

 

[bu_gee]

If your mash spent any considerable time at 160°F, you might have torched a good amount of your beta-amylase enzymes.

 

[OkanaganMike]

It looks like 7.5 gal Pre-boil @ 1.060 should boil down to 6 gal @ 1.070... seems pretty normal to me.

64% Brewhouse efficiency for a no-sparge 1.070 beer doesn't seem wrong in any way. Should taste great, actually! No sparge makes for awesome malty beers.

Did you really get 7.5 gals of preboil with only 8.25 in the whole mash? I usually lose about 0.1 gal/lb or so, you lost less than half that.

If that's what you're after, I suggest: 1) hold back two or three gallons for a sparge, 2) be a little more aggressive when racking/draining to the kettle, don't leave much liquid behind, and 3) test a finer crush.

I did a Belgian Blond with friend who doesn't have his own mill, and with a More Beer crush and a 60 minute mash + mash out we got 81% overall (Brewhouse) efficiency with a single sparge and leaving the trub cone behind.

And don't let 'em bust your chops about aging a strong ale

You know what? I was second guessing that too when I first wrote it from my notes but now I think about it, I added water to bring it up to the 7.5 preboil amt due to the grains sucking it all up.

I've never measured whats left in the keggle when I'm done but figure its about 3/4 gal. Maybe I'll bend me a new pce of copper to get the take off a bit lower.

What is the formula for brewhouse eff? I used brewers friend but I'm still a bit confused

 

[Magnus314]

For Brewhouse (to fermenter) I use (fermenter volume X gravity) / potential gravity

Not sure if that's entirely scientific, but it makes sense to me since it's basically "how much did I get out of how much I could've got?"

 

[RM-MN]

Gotta give props to Permo as this was based on his recipe. I added the Melenoiden in lieu of a pound of Marris Otter and Permo's decoction method as I was trying to avoid that step as I'm a one pot BIAB'er. Read a great thread called "Decoction vs. Melenoiden malt on this site and thought I'd try it out.

I think secondary is necessary as it would sit on the trub for 60days and thus receive off flavors from it.

Up to now, I've normally mashed in at 160 with grains at room temp and ambient temp around 6*C. It'll drop to 148-150F after the hour. This time, although ambient was a bit warmer, grain bill was much heavier and out in the garage overnight so were around 50F. Thought I'd better raise strike temp to accomodate the larger heat sink the grains would pose. Finished at 152F after the hour so I think it did ok.

As for the percentages, I used Brewer's friend but very well could have buggered up my recordings. Guess I don't need to know it as long as the beer is good but would like to try and understand so's I can talk the lingo to fellow Home Brewer's.

Your mash temp seem awfully high to me......but I've mashed at 159 with good results. If your grains are milled fine for BIAB, most of your conversion happens within the first 10 minutes so that is when your mash temperature is the most critical. If the temperature drops you might get more activity from the beta amylase causing your wort to be more fermentable but the beta amylase is denatured fairly quickly at that 160 so it might not have much effect. From there on it seems like your grains are giving up proteins that will get you a good head on your beer and you are extracting more of the flavor.

 

[OkanaganMike]

Your mash temp seem awfully high to me......but I've mashed at 159 with good results. If your grains are milled fine for BIAB, most of your conversion happens within the first 10 minutes so that is when your mash temperature is the most critical. If the temperature drops you might get more activity from the beta amylase causing your wort to be more fermentable but the beta amylase is denatured fairly quickly at that 160 so it might not have much effect. From there on it seems like your grains are giving up proteins that will get you a good head on your beer and you are extracting more of the flavor.

So if I understand correctly, if the beta amylase was denatured due to too high mash in, it won't convert fully so I should have a higher FG than what the recipe calls for correct?
I wrap the keggle in 2" fiberglass (doubled up 1" duct wrap so FSK vapor barrier faces out) with a cargo blanket over the top and cook outside. With weather being still chilly, what temp do you recommend mash in at and would you keep heat on to maintain optimum 152F?

 

[TexasWine]

No something is wrong in your measures as your end kettle efficiency is higher than the preboil. These ought to be the same. No sugars are lost from the start to the end of the boil.

So here's an interesting question. If I am using a hop sock/spider, should ending kettle be measured before or after removing it from the wort? I always loose a point or so because of what's absorbed in the hops.

If the answer is before, then I agree that end kettle and preboil should be the same. If it's after, then they'll be a little different.

Also, boil overs could cause a difference between the two.

 

[OkanaganMike]

So here's an interesting question. If I am using a hop sock/spider, should ending kettle be measured before or after removing it from the wort? I always loose a point or so because of what's absorbed in the hops.

If the answer is before, then I agree that end kettle and preboil should be the same. If it's after, then they'll be a little different.

Also, boil overs could cause a difference between the two.

Hmmmmmmmm..........
I just plugged my info into Brewer's friend efficiency calculator. Has anyone else done this with their numbers and found it odd between the 4 options?

 

[RM-MN]

So if I understand correctly, if the beta amylase was denatured due to too high mash in, it won't convert fully so I should have a higher FG than what the recipe calls for correct?
I wrap the keggle in 2" fiberglass (doubled up 1" duct wrap so FSK vapor barrier faces out) with a cargo blanket over the top and cook outside. With weather being still chilly, what temp do you recommend mash in at and would you keep heat on to maintain optimum 152F?

This is an area where the full info isn't available. Many of us who brew BIAB find that our FG is lower than expected based on our mash temp. While I've read that beta amylase is denatured quickly at mash temps, with finely milled grains the conversion is very quick too so you may or may not get a higher FG. I'll be experimenting more with higher mash temps when I get back to brewing in the fall.

 

[Owly055]

This is an area where the full info isn't available. Many of us who brew BIAB find that our FG is lower than expected based on our mash temp. While I've read that beta amylase is denatured quickly at mash temps, with finely milled grains the conversion is very quick too so you may or may not get a higher FG. I'll be experimenting more with higher mash temps when I get back to brewing in the fall.

Beta is dentured quickly........ however it acts very rapidly at these higher temps also....... a double edged sword so to speak. If you mash low, the conversion is slow....... if you mash high, the conversion is fast. Unfortunately alpha and beta operate in the opposite sequence from what would be most efficient. At low temps beta is not denatured, and continues it's conversion as far as it can without the alpha being active and helping the process...but it works relatively slowly until the temps climb, when it takes off, but is soon denatured. The result is that while the "reverse step mash" would created the most fermentable wort in theory, it doesn't work because the beta is denatured. I've played with powdered amylase quite a bit with good results ( in terms of what I was trying to accomplish ).

The only efficiency that matters to me is the brewhouse efficiency...... what's my gravity at the end of the boil.........with the correct amount of wort.... as compared to the gravity predicted in my brewing software. I've occasionally hit as high as 91% based on Brewer's Friend using BIAB and sparging............but is it relevant? Are we shooting for max flavor or max alcohol content?

To be really honest about efficiency, we need to look also at how much trub is in the fermenter........ in other words what the yield at the end of the process is. Trub in the fermenter, and dregs in the bottle that you don't drink need to be deducted, so the numbers are not nearly so good as they look. I average about 85% brewhouse efficiency, but I lose about 20% (est) from fermenter to glass. That puts me at 68% average efficiency. I can crow about hitting 91% brewhouse efficiency, but my net efficiency at the end of the day is really only 73% if I hit 91.

H.W.

 

[OkanaganMike]

This is an area where the full info isn't available. Many of us who brew BIAB find that our FG is lower than expected based on our mash temp. While I've read that beta amylase is denatured quickly at mash temps, with finely milled grains the conversion is very quick too so you may or may not get a higher FG. I'll be experimenting more with higher mash temps when I get back to brewing in the fall.

Agreed, all 4 of my past 5 gal batches have been equal to or below the recipe's FG. Thought at first maybe it was due to me leaving in the fermenter too long but quickly realized that doesn't workout. Guess we'll see how this one turns out in 2mos time.

 

[Gavin C]

So here's an interesting question. If I am using a hop sock/spider, should ending kettle be measured before or after removing it from the wort? I always loose a point or so because of what's absorbed in the hops.

If the answer is before, then I agree that end kettle and preboil should be the same. If it's after, then they'll be a little different.

Also, boil overs could cause a difference between the two.

Absolutely true but it will be a tick lower not higher than the start as per the OP's numbers.

 

[OkanaganMike]

The only efficiency that matters to me is the brewhouse efficiency...... what's my gravity at the end of the boil.........with the correct amount of wort.... as compared to the gravity predicted in my brewing software.

I reckon this about sums it all up.
Any more and you gotta be some kind of astro physicist to figure it all out. Seems there are a lot of factors that skew the eff #'s so as long as the beer tastes good, all is good in the world. (Well, mine at least)

 

[DeMerchant]

To be really honest about efficiency, we need to look also at how much trub is in the fermenter........ in other words what the yield at the end of the process is. Trub in the fermenter, and dregs in the bottle that you don't drink need to be deducted, so the numbers are not nearly so good as they look. I average about 85% brewhouse efficiency, but I lose about 20% (est) from fermenter to glass. That puts me at 68% average efficiency. I can crow about hitting 91% brewhouse efficiency, but my net efficiency at the end of the day is really only 73% if I hit 91.

I really don't want to turn this into a stupid argument over definitions, but I REALLY love this point. If we're talking about 'overall efficiency' that really matters it's how much grain can I turn into how much beer in the glass. I hugely agree that when we're talking about this overall efficiency turb and other loss on the way to the glass should be taken into account, but I don't think it's really a straight deduction either. For your overall efficiency shouldn't you be considering loss between going from the fermenter to the glass to some unachieveable science lab 'potential minimum loss' as opposed to 0 loss.

Anyway this seems like a rabbit hole and I'm going ... suffice to say I agree that what's important is how much beer you get to the glass.