Oy...fermentation issues again...

[Oyarsa]

I seem to have problems with getting fermentation going...

Yesterday I did a version of the Resilience IPA from Sierra Nevada.

I steeped the Crystal 60L for 20 minutes in 3 gallons, added 4 lbs of CBW Pale Ale DME, stirred it in, raised it to boiling and followed the schedule with 0.56 oz Centennial pellets at the start, another 0.56 oz and 0.56 oz of Cascade pellets after 65 minutes, and after an additional 15 minutes, another .23 oz of each. I let those sit for 20 minutes, cooled the wort down to 70 according to my digital thermometer, and siphoned it to the primary bucket. There was a lot of trub liquid in the bottom and some did transfer, but I'm not too concerned about that. After the evaporation and trub loss I had just shy of 2 gallons. I was aiming for 2.666 based on the amount of DME, but figured just adding a gallon was fine. I measured 1.056 on the hydrometer and proceeded to aerate the wort with a SS spatula. I managed to work up a bit of a foam splashing it around.

I took a bag of Imperial Yeast A20 (my LHBS did not have the A24, but I figured it was close enough) from the fridge. The manufacture date was from May, so it was past the 3 month suggested time frame, but I figured surely it was still fine. I massaged and shook it (maybe too hard?) as the bag suggested and poured it straight into the wort. Battened down the hatches and set the bucket in a tub. Apparently that wasn't necessary. So far there is no sign of fermentation. No airlock activity, and no krausen starting. It's been about 18 hours, so I know it's maybe still too soon, but I've been having a spate of difficult/failed fermentations, so I'm nervous.

The bucket sits on a counter near our thermostat. The ambient temperature is around 70. Maybe I should heat things up a bit? Sounds like A20 works better closer to 80...

Help?

 

[Moose_MI]

“it was past the 3 month suggested time frame, but I figured surely it was still fine. ”

Why?

Don’t heat it up. Either acquire some healthy yeast and pitch asap or wait at least another 48 hours to learn that the yeast was dead or that it was really old and you experienced long lag time because of it.

Cheers

 

[Oyarsa]

The website for Imperial Yeast suggests that it should be fine well past the 3 months (of course that's subjective) and it's a 3 gallon batch as opposed to 5 gallon, so I was thinking it would be. I used a package of dry yeast on my first wine kit that was probably about 8 years old and did fine, but I suppose liquid yeast is different...

If I wait 48 hours and it IS dead, will I be too late to pitch new yeast?

 

[Moose_MI]

Well...at 18hrs we’re still assuming your yeast wasn’t healthy...we’re just guessing ... maybe it will be take off soon ..?

hard/impossible to predict what will happen ... we’re just guessing at this point

To late now but for future reference this would have been a good case to use a starter to validate yeast had some life as well as let it get pumped up for to fermenter your beer.

It’s never really to late to pitch yeast into wort. The risk in waiting is that every minute you’re not infecting that beer with yeast you want is a minute for yeast that you don’t want to infect that beer.

No matter what happens at this point the final product will be impacted to some degree by the fact the yeast was less than optimal to begin with. Not saying toss it...or that it’s going to be terrible....we just don’t know.

If it were me I would try to get some fresh yeast as soon as possible and get it in there....but it’s your beer!

 

[ncbrewer]

If it were me I would try to get some fresh yeast as soon as possible and get it in there....but it’s your beer!

+1
I'd definitely pitch some good yeast. If you wait, it could easily become infected. Then you'll loose the batch, and infect your equipment. Even waiting this long would worry me, but since no chill is generally successful, I'm probably being too conservative.

 

[Oyarsa]

Sounds like good advice. I just tried to get more of the Imperial, but the store is closed on the weekends. Swung by our Ace Hardware and bought the closest I could find...a Wyeast #1332 smack pack. It's smacked and waiting the 3 hours now.

Just curious...what happens if you smack a pack and decide not to use it? Any way to save it?

 

[Oyarsa]

I assume I should re-aerate. Is that a correct assumption?

 

[Moose_MI]

I’m not sure there have been studies done on what you have going on so right vs wrong at this point is going to be open to debate.

If it were me I would likely choose NOT to aerate again.

 

[Moose_MI]

One thing you DEFINITELY should do...


...this is critical....

...like really important stuff coming...

...get paper and pen so you can write this down..

..........
..............
..................


RDWHAHB!!!

Cheers!

 

[Oyarsa]

I knew that one was coming at some point Right now it's not a home brew per say, but does a home mist wine count? It's what I made for my first try at fermenting. The yeast was about 8 years old and not stored well, but that one actually worked fine! Go figure...

 

[IslandLizard]

Swung by our Ace Hardware and bought the closest I could find...a Wyeast #1332 smack pack. It's smacked and waiting the 3 hours now.

Never knew Ace Hardware had brewing supplies...
Was that refrigerated? Manufacturing Date?

You should ALWAYS make a starter when using liquid yeast a few days before pitching (brewing). Making starters a) proves that it's viable, b) ramps up cell count, and c) revitalizes the colony.

Also, don't pitch cold yeast into wort to prevent "shock." Try to aim at the temps of the yeast pack and the wort to be within 10°F when pitching.

Since this is a 3 gallon medium gravity batch the first yeast pitch should be showing signs of fermentation by now.
You can safely aerate up to 12-18 hours after pitching. That is if no signs of fermentation have occurred yet.

 

[IslandLizard]

The yeast was about 8 years old and not stored well, but that one actually worked fine! Go figure...

Dry yeast is much more resilient than liquid yeast. I've used dry yeasts that was over 3 years past expiration date and it took off as if it were a fresh pack. Dry yeast should be stored refrigerated or even better, frozen. Liquid yeast only refrigerated (above freezing), unless you really know how to safely freeze and defrost it.

 

[Oyarsa]

Two of our Aces did, but one stopped. Now only one in town continues, but it is surprisingly well stocked. The yeast I just bought was refrigerated and manufactured 11-29-18.

You recommend starters even for Wyeast smack packs? The Imperial yeast instructions say to go straight from the refrigerator to the wort. Do you recommend against that?

 

[Oyarsa]

Just pitched the new yeast. Of course, go figure, there were now signs of some sort of fermentation. Oh well...should be interesting to see what results...

 

[IslandLizard]

You recommend starters even for Wyeast smack packs? The Imperial yeast instructions say to go straight from the refrigerator to the wort. Do you recommend against that?

Yes, even smack packs. Although they help somewhat revitalizing the dormant yeast, the cell count could be way down. There is only one way to raise that: Through a starter!
Use a yeast calculator such as Homebrew Dad's to estimate cells needed for a batch, and the current pack's or saved slurry's vitality due to age.

So as a general rule, all liquid yeast, including Wyeast, WLP, Imperial, Omega, etc. should be made into starters first to a)... b)... c).... You don't know what condition it is in, even if it was manufactured last week, it could have been frozen, overheated, or mishandled in other ways. I think your Imperial pack's slow start is a clear sign of it not being in optimal condition.

Bonus to making starters, overbuild them somewhat (larger than needed) and save some out to build a next (overbuild) starter from, etc., etc. That's called "yeast ranching" and you can easily ferment 6-10 batches from one yeast pack, while always pitching fresh. Aside from those, you can also repitch from harvested yeast cakes. You do need to keep good sanitation.

 

[Oyarsa]

Looks like I've got some research to do.

The batch is definitely alive now. No airlock activity, but a krausen is covering almost the entire surface now. Not sure which yeast is the cause of it, considering it was starting to form in between when I started the smack pack and pitched it.

It will be very interesting to compare this batch to the real deal in a can from Sierra Nevada and I may even be able to compare that to two local breweries that are joining the effort...

 

[IslandLizard]

The batch is definitely alive now.

Most likely from your first, Imperial pitch. Unlikely from the second, WY pitch, that soon.

Try saving some of that yeast cake when it's all done. Except from very high gravity batches, a whole yeast cake saved from a fermentation can ferment 3-5 equally size/similar gravity batches.

Just in case, do not use a secondary, leave in the fermenter it's in now until ready to package. Keep the lid on as much as possible, air (oxidation) is a real danger to hoppy beers.

Are you going to dry hop this?

 

[Oyarsa]

Yes. I was planning on dry hopping in 1 gallon jugs primarily because I wanted to try flavoring 1 gallon with tamarind (I'm somewhat obsessed with tamarind). Maybe I should hold off and try that in the future. This time I will just give it 4 days of fermenting and then add the hops to the primary. Does that sound like a good idea?

But, out of curiosity, why do you suggest not doing a secondary this time?

 

[IslandLizard]

But, out of curiosity, why do you suggest not doing a secondary this time?

Not this time, not any time. Secondaries are (mostly) not needed at all, they don't fix anything and chances are they will cause more trouble: Oxidation and infection!

Only use secondaries if you want to bulk age for longer than 6-12 weeks, making sours (long term secondaries) and sometimes when using fruit, not always.

Dry hop 5 days before packaging. Or earlier, if you want to get it on the last stretch of the fermentation, that's fine too. Wait for the fermentation to slow down a bit. Some NEIPA brewers dry hop around the 50% attenuation point, and again when fermentation has ceased, 3-5 days before cold crashing and packaging. The cold crash will drop everything to the bottom, leaving clear beer on top ready for bottling or kegging.

If you want, you could rack to gallon jugs (secondaries), and dry hop individually, but you've got to prevent splashing and sucking air or you'll oxidize the beer (and hops). When you do, leave very little headspace.

Save the yeast cake from your fermenter in a few large mason jars, cap, and store in fridge for the next brew. If used within say 2 months, you can pitch the slurry as is. If longer than 3 months, definitely make a starter.

 

[Oyarsa]

Thanks for the info.

The airlock is bubbling now, and while I know bubbling or a lack thereof isn't a great indication, it makes me feel better.

Maybe I will leave it completely alone for two weeks (rather than disturbing it to check the SG), dry hop for 5 days, cold crash if I can, transfer 1 gallon to a jug with tamarind and the other two into a bottling bucket to bottle immediately.

Would the jug with fruit need headspace in case fermentation restarts, or is a krausen unlikely at that point?

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks for the info.

The airlock is bubbling now, and while I know bubbling or a lack thereof isn't a great indication, it makes me feel better.

Maybe I will leave it completely alone for two weeks (rather than disturbing it to check the SG), dry hop for 5 days, cold crash if I can, transfer 1 gallon to a jug with tamarind and the other two into a bottling bucket to bottle immediately.

Would the jug with fruit need headspace in case fermentation restarts, or is a krausen unlikely at that point?

Good plan!

Leave 2 inches of headspace in the Tamarind jug. It will be a a very slow going secondary fermentation anyway, if at all:

• There's not much yeast left at that point, although you could suck some extra yeast off the bottom when racking.
• There's not all that much sugar in the tamarind, maybe add a little sugar or (homemade) "candi syrup" for good measure to kick the yeast up a bit.
• Tamarind is very acidic, it will be difficult for the yeast to work under such a low pH. Depending on how much you use, expect a pH of 4.0-3.2, keep that in mind. But you will extract the acidity and flavors, and all a lot quicker when added as a puree or macerated fruit.

 

[Moose_MI]

Glad to hear beer is going!
Sounds like the imperial yeast was ok after all...impressive! Probably not something i would incorporate into my standard practice but impressive none the less. Yeast are amazing.

My 2 cents on starters for yeast...
the goal (regardless of dry/liquid/old/fresh) is to pitch a reasonable amount of healthy yeast into your beer.
Unhealthy and low pitch count will also make beer...they’re probably making your beer now. It may not matter much to your beer and we will all celebrate with you. However, relying on this every time is going to eventually bite you so you want to pitch good yeast.
A starter is a guarantee that your pitching plenty of healthy yeast into your beer. Do you need to do it every time....absolutely not in my opinion...but you are not wrong if you choose to do so. If you have a relatively fresh pack of liquid yeast and you smack that thing and it puffs up then I would be very very confident that it’s ready for my beer w/o a starter. I dare say the majority of liquid yeast users in the above scenario are not making a starter.

In your case this time given the yeast was well past it’s date i would have strongly encouraged a yeast starter....if nothing else it saves you all the worry that you went through the last 36 hrs.

..but it’s your beer and you get to decide what’s best for it

Cheers!