New to Electric, a few questions on 110v only setup

[cegan09]

I'm in the middle of piecing together a RIMS for my BIAB setup. Normally I just do everything over propane outside since I'm on the second story of an apartment. But with the weather getting cooler I'm really liking the idea of being able to be inside, or just on the upper deck more and more. Propane burners on second story decks are a huge no, so I've been looking at electric.

My questions. I only have access to 110V outlets. I have a drier hookup in the basement, but I'm not going to run a chord that long. I'm happy with using 110V for the RIMS, but the boil is where i'm more worried. I have read conflicting reports on trying to do 5gallon+ batches on a single 110V element. Some say it's ok, some say you'll wait forever for a low boil. I'm usually boiling 7+ gallons, so I'm thinking the single element wouldn't be great.

My initial thought was simply run two elements. (assuming I can physically fit them). However the control aspect gets me hung up. With a single element I could simply have one controller. I'd use it in PID mode for RIMS mashing, and then swap the plug to the kettle element and use manual for boil. Is there any way to control two elements off a single controller, or would I really need two controllers? Or to say it another way, could I take my single controller, and use it to send a xx% manual duty cycle to two elements?

Would a better way be to simply run one element off the controller, and have the other wired to just run full power all the time? (with the proper precautions of course).

I realize that I'll need two separate circuits to even think about this, I'm fine running an extension chord from somewhere in the apartment. And I realize everything should have GFCI outlets.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Bobby_M]

There's no reason you can't control two SSRs with one PID. Each circuit runs through its own SSR and stays isolated but both are controlled.

 

[RichBenn]

I have a dual element 110V system. One PID, two SSRs, like Bobby says. That's the right way, IMHO, as BOTH elements run 50% or so once boiling. Effectively reduces boil watt density = less scorching, it would seem. Having one at 100% during the entire boil means you probably want ULWD elements.

 

[augiedoggy]

Ditto whats been already mentioned... if you go with 2 elements you can go with 5500w elements wired at 120v if you like for lower watt density as well... effectively you will have 2750w going for the boil which is more than enough for a strong boil with 7 gallons... one of the advantages is no worries of ever scorching regardless of situation and your elements will be extremly easy to wipe clean without buildup on them. and if you ever find yourself going bigger and brewing in your basement well your further ahead with the futureproof elements..

 

[cegan09]

Thanks. I assume it was ok to do it that way, I just wanted to check. Electricity is nothing to screw around with.

I'll start getting parts on order.

 

[chordwizard]

Is there a schematic available that shows the 1 pid 2 ssr setup? Sounds like just what I need.

Thanks

 

[cegan09]

I assume it's as simple as taking SSR trigger lines from the PID, and running them to both SSR, either in parallel, or series. I'd go parallel, but since they only need 3V to trigger, and it's putting out 12, the voltage drop can't be that large, so series would work.

 

[augiedoggy]

I assume it's as simple as taking SSR trigger lines from the PID, and running them to both SSR, either in parallel, or series. I'd go parallel, but since they only need 3V to trigger, and it's putting out 12, the voltage drop can't be that large, so series would work.

Your exactly right.. some ssrs are a little more flexible on the trigger voltage and strength than other though..

 

[cegan09]

New Question.

For boil, I like the idea of a simple knob control for element power, like an SSVR provides. Seems like a faster response to impending boil-overs than trying to mess with the PID manual output setting.

I'm trying to read on how you might wire both the SSVR and a normal PID SSR together to achieve this. The simplest way I can see is wire the SSR and SSVR in series (don't think the order matters). When using PID mode just make sure the SSVR is set to 100%. When you want manual control set the PID to manual 100% and use the SSVR knob to vary the element power. Are there any problems with this I'm not seeing?

I guess the easier option is to just have separate outlets for the elements, 3 in total. One is controlled by the PID for RIMS. The other two are run by SSVRs on separate circuits for the two boil elements. One of the boil outlets and the RIMS outlet would share a circuit and I'd need a switch to make sure only one could be active at a time.

 

[wilserbrewer]

With only 2750 watts , and a well sized large kettle, you may likely find there is no need to turn the power down for the boil.

 

[cegan09]

I'm in an 8.5 gallon kettle (for now), and when i'm starting boils at 7-7.5 gallons i usually have to baby sit it for the first half hour.

You may be right that it's not a worry, but I'd like the functionality. Plus I'll want this to be a little future proof since I'm hopefully buying a place in the next year that will have 240V to upgrade to.

 

[Bobby_M]

With the advent of the Auber EZ boil DSPR120, there is no longer any reason to couple a traditional PID with an SSVR. It's a waste of hardware and heat dissipation. The EZboil can go from 100% output to zero with a flick of the knob.

 

[jeffmeh]

New Question.

For boil, I like the idea of a simple knob control for element power, like an SSVR provides. Seems like a faster response to impending boil-overs than trying to mess with the PID manual output setting.

I'm trying to read on how you might wire both the SSVR and a normal PID SSR together to achieve this. The simplest way I can see is wire the SSR and SSVR in series (don't think the order matters). When using PID mode just make sure the SSVR is set to 100%. When you want manual control set the PID to manual 100% and use the SSVR knob to vary the element power. Are there any problems with this I'm not seeing?

I guess the easier option is to just have separate outlets for the elements, 3 in total. One is controlled by the PID for RIMS. The other two are run by SSVRs on separate circuits for the two boil elements. One of the boil outlets and the RIMS outlet would share a circuit and I'd need a switch to make sure only one could be active at a time.

Even easier: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=560

 

[cegan09]

With the advent of the Auber EZ boil DSPR120, there is no longer any reason to couple a traditional PID with an SSVR. It's a waste of hardware and heat dissipation. The EZboil can go from 100% output to zero with a flick of the knob.

womp womp. I just ordered a PID from Auber and didn't see that product. Looks like it works for mash control too? Maybe I'll have to trade the PID back for that.

 

[Bobby_M]

It can be used for temp set and hold (mash mode) and boil mode with power control. You can use or disable the timer function but it's pretty slick.

 

[cegan09]

Looks like a great option. And I can still use it to trigger the two elements since it's just triggering SSRs.

I contacted them to see if my order can be altered before going out. Thanks for pointing me in that direction.

 

[cegan09]

Huge thumbs up to Auber. I placed the order this afternoon. Emailed them 5 minutes ago asking if it was possible to swap the PID for the EZBoil. Got a response within minutes saying it was done and I'm all set.


Thanks again for the suggestion. Greatly looking forward to this project.

 

[Egas1949]

would it be possible to control two elements and two probes with a single dspr120? If you have a two vessel system with a probe and element in each, could you switch between the two with a multi-pole switch (a 3PDT or 4PDT switch)?

 

[Bobby_M]

Only if the two probes happen to be electrically identical. These sometimes require offset correction by a degree or two.

 

[Egas1949]

Only if the two probes happen to be electrically identical. These sometimes require offset correction by a degree or two.

I haven't committed to buying any of the controller or probes yet. So if by electrically similar you mean the same hardware, then yes I'd be buying the same probe hardware for each vessel. If there is an offset, I'd be more concerned with calibrating to the mash tun anyway. A brew kettle probe gives me the convenience of monitoring cooling, and I'm fine with compensating with whatever difference there is there.

I've searched around on the forums and found bits and pieces to cobble together for wiring directions, but if you have any resources or details to offer, I'd be grateful to have them.

thanks

 

[cegan09]

Best practice question on switches for elements. I want an enable/disable switch for each element. Is it better to:
1. switch the signal wires from the PID/Controller that activate the SSR
2. Run the power from the terminal block through the switch before it gets to the SSR
3. install another relay/contactor between terminal block and SSR and control that with the switch?

I was leaning towards 1, but if the SSR ever failed it could fail into a constant on case. 3 seems overkill if the switches are rated to handle the power required.

 

[jeffmeh]

Best practice question on switches for elements. I want an enable/disable switch for each element. Is it better to:
1. switch the signal wires from the PID/Controller that activate the SSR
2. Run the power from the terminal block through the switch before it gets to the SSR
3. install another relay/contactor between terminal block and SSR and control that with the switch?

I was leaning towards 1, but if the SSR ever failed it could fail into a constant on case. 3 seems overkill if the switches are rated to handle the power required.

2, with an appropriately rated switch, or 3 with an appropriately rated contactor. For 110v, obviously single pole. If 220v (US) with two hot lines, both hot lines should go through the double pole switch or contactor. Never 1, because the SSR can fail on (closed) regardless of the control signals.

 

[cegan09]

Perfect, that's what I was hoping the confirmation would be.

 

[TexasWine]

and then swap the plug to the kettle element and use manual for boil.

Just to clarify, you're installing two elements in your kettle, right? This statement sounds like you want an external RIMs element and a single kettle element, but that's not what I gather from your subsequent posts.

 

[cegan09]

Just to clarify, you're installing two elements in your kettle, right? This statement sounds like you want an external RIMs element and a single kettle element, but that's not what I gather from your subsequent posts.

Yes, two kettle elements.

So my setup would contain 3 total elements. Two in the kettle, one in the RIMS. The controller would have only two plugs, both controlled by a single controller, but powered by two separate 110V circuits. During the mash I'd have a single element plugged in (RIMS tube). When that is done I would unplug the RIMs and plug in both kettle elements.

 

[TexasWine]

Yes, two kettle elements.

So my setup would contain 3 total elements. Two in the kettle, one in the RIMS. The controller would have only two plugs, both controlled by a single controller, but powered by two separate 110V circuits. During the mash I'd have a single element plugged in (RIMS tube). When that is done I would unplug the RIMs and plug in both kettle elements.

My suggestion, skip the external RIMs and use one of the elements in the kettle to maintain temps. It works exactly like an external RIMs but requires less equipment. Should save you quite a bit of coin. This is exactly what I, and a whole bunch of others, do.

 

[cegan09]

Already ordered the RIMs. I'm thinking along a future expansion path. Right now I'm in an 8.5 gallon kettle. And I can manage 5 gallon batches of most things, but it's exciting. In the future, once I own a place instead of renting, I'd like to move to 240V and a larger vessel. Either a single large vessel and continue the BIAB idea, or move to a two vessel cooler + kettle setup. I like the idea of RIMs and it's benefits. Buying it now plays into that future goal.

Plus I just like tech. I wanted an excuse for a control panel and pumps and hoses and more stuffs.

 

[TexasWine]

Already ordered the RIMs. I'm thinking along a future expansion path. Right now I'm in an 8.5 gallon kettle. And I can manage 5 gallon batches of most things, but it's exciting. In the future, once I own a place instead of renting, I'd like to move to 240V and a larger vessel. Either a single large vessel and continue the BIAB idea, or move to a two vessel cooler + kettle setup. I like the idea of RIMs and it's benefits. Buying it now plays into that future goal.

Plus I just like tech. I wanted an excuse for a control panel and pumps and hoses and more stuffs.

I understand the enjoyment of tech, but my drive for the most functionality with the least dollars spent usually wins out. What I'm driving at is that I still don't see any need for the external RIMs, even with future expansion in mind. And when you mention "RIMs and its benefits", I'm not aware of any benefits that external RIMs has over kettle RIMs. Maybe I'm missing something?

My personal experience is that kettle RIMs has not limited expansion. I have a 15.5 gallon BIAB set up with a single 1500 watt element and some 1500 watt Hot Rods from Brew Hardware I use for boil assistance when needed. I can do no sparge high gravity 6 gallon batches, or knock out 10 gallons of low gravity stuff.

I guess it's only money, but from a practical standpoint I personally couldn't justify going the external RIMs route if I had a kettle mounted element. But I also couldn't justify the expense to go to 240v when 120v works just fine for me.

OK, I'll shut up now! Not trying to berate your decision, but just wanted to make sure you knew you were spending more than needed to accomplish the same thing.

 

[cegan09]

No, opinions are good. While I might be caught up in the "shiny new toy" aspect of the tube i already ordered, the next person that reads through might agree with you. I do realize there is added cost to add the external tube.

Maybe on an expanded system I'd be more leaning towards that approach. But with my smaller kettle, I'd like to not lose any more grain space. Using an external I can drape my bag and grains right on the kettle elements. To use those to heat I'd need to use a real false bottom. Just one more trade off. And if I did ever go with a cooler setup for a mash tun I'd want the external tube instead of putting an element in the cooler.

 

[cegan09]

Ok, so I put together a rough schematic for what i'll be doing. anyone see any issues? I'm asking purely on the AC routing.

Notes:
1. Grounds are not on here. I know everything must be grounded
2. temp probe is not shown, it's fairly simple
3. I'm assuming a DPST keyed switch that will trigger both contacters without "joining" the circuits.
4. My pump circuitry isn't shown it will just be a simple switched circuit off of one of the inputs for a 12V pump. Likely I'll use the circuit that doesn't drive the RIMS element to limit load on that circuit.
5. I will be using an in-line GFCI cord, so there isn't anything in the controller.
6. While Mashing I will only have a single element enabled (the one in the RIMS tube)
7. While boiling I'll plug in both kettle elements and enable both.
8. The controller is an Auber EZBoil

 

[cegan09]

Bump? Any issues with the above?

 

[doug293cz]

What are the devices controlled by the blue lighted switches?

Brew on

 

[cegan09]

What are the devices controlled by the blue lighted switches?

Brew on

Heating elements. I just didn't show anything past the plugs in the controller. Actual switches are yellow, not blue. Basically I'll have two elements in the kettle, and a RIMS.

When I'm mashing I'll have just the RIMS plugged in, and only one outlet active. Run that element and a pump.

When I boil i'll remove the RIMS and plug in both kettle elements.