My first lager recipe - Need some help

[StarsanManiac]

Looking to brew my first lager on the weekend now that I have temp control for my ferm chamber. Here goes:

OG 1.048 to 1.055 range

WLP838 Southern German Lager Yeast at 11C (52F)

50% Pale Malt OiO
48% Weyermann Vienna
2% Carafoam

Boil for 75min
26 IBU Columbus at 60 min
4 IBU Hallertauer Mittelfruh at 5min

Mash temp will be on the high side, around 68C (154F) since that’s where I usually mash. I normally use WLP007 for strong ales and still get really high attenuation, but I could be convinced to mash lower it if my attenuation is expected to be significantly lower with WLP838.

I’m looking for a malt profile that is somewhat grainy flavor (not sweet), and a significant but not overpowering bittering and hop profile. I want as simple a recipe as possible to start, and then tweak as I go.

I usually fiddle with water, salts, and acid malt to get to 5.35 to 5.40pH for mash with my ales and it works good. I build my water from scratch so I’m thinking Ca 110, Mg 10, SO4 200, Cl 72, Na low, and it should be around 1% acid malt to get the pH right.

Feedback please!

 

[wobdee]

Recipe looks good to me. Your SO4 looks a little on the high side for a Lager. One thing I've learned from the water guru's here is get that SO4 down low if your brewing lighter lagers with Nobel hops. Maybe using RO or distilled water for half of your brewing water would cut that down.

 

[Yooper]

Recipe looks good to me. Your SO4 looks a little on the high side for a Lager. One thing I've learned from the water guru's here is get that SO4 down low if your brewing lighter lagers with Nobel hops. Maybe using RO or distilled water for half of your brewing water would cut that down.

Agreed. Calcium is too high, sulfate is too high, and chloride is high as well. I'd go with the 'less is more' theory, and go with 40-50 ppm of calcium (or less) and no added sulfate (noble hops get harsh with sulfate) and just enough chloride to get the calcium to 40 ppm or so. Mash pH of 5.30-5.4 is fine.

Columbus can have a lingering harsh bitterness when use at 60 minutes, but that's fine if you like it.

I have no idea what pale malt OiO is, though!

 

[StarsanManiac]

Agreed. Calcium is too high, sulfate is too high, and chloride is high as well.

I was looking at the Dortmunder water in Bru'n water but I agree it's probably not a good place to start. I meant to say that I make my water from 100% RO. I'll copy the water from a Vienna SMaSH I did recently, Ca 50, Mg 5, SO4 55, Cl 65, Na and HCO3 low.

Columbus can have a lingering harsh bitterness when use at 60 minutes, but that's fine if you like it.

I bittered an IPA with Columbus once and enjoyed it but I think I know what you mean. Maybe not best for a lighter beer. My other choices from what I have in stock are Chinook, Simcoe, Centennial, Ahatnum, St Golding, Willamette. Would chinook be a better choice for bittering?

I have no idea what pale malt OiO is, though!

Could be it's only sold in Canada. It's a 2-row, very lightly kilned more like pilsner.

 

[wobdee]

Personally I think Chinook is a little harsh as well, I like German Magnum for bittering my Lagers.

 

[StarsanManiac]

Personally I think Chinook is a little harsh as well, I like German Magnum for bittering my Lagers.

I have access to apollo and warrior as well. Are they more neutral?

 

[Yooper]

I have access to apollo and warrior as well. Are they more neutral?

Not as smooth as magnum, but a tiny bit of warrior might be ok. I'd rather use something more neutral, like magnum, but if you have to use one that you already have I'd probably use warrior. I don't think it's ideal, though. It'd still be a bit harsher and more dominant than a more neutral bittering hop.

 

[StarsanManiac]

I'll check locally for some Magnum. I'd rather not run the risk of having to track down funky flavors in my first lager recipe. Thanks!

 

[StarsanManiac]

LHBS has Galena. Is that ok for bittering at 60 minutes?

 

[dfhar]

Just wondering, why not Weyermann or Best pilsner malt? I'm sure it will be a good beer regardless, but IMO continental pilsner malt is necessary to get that fresh grain/bread flavor you find in good German and Czech light lagers. I would probably even cut back the vienna to 30% and use 70% pilsner.

 

[fermentology]

I personally would mash a little lower, but I like my beers on the drier side.

Also if you want some grainy flavor I recommend Melanoidin malt. I use it because I'm too lazy to do a decoction.

The biggest thing is to monitor your fermentation. Pitch cool and keep an eye on your gravity so that you can slowly ramp up your fermentation temperature for a diacetyl rest.

 

[StarsanManiac]

Just wondering, why not Weyermann or Best pilsner malt? I'm sure it will be a good beer regardless, but IMO continental pilsner malt is necessary to get that fresh grain/bread flavor you find in good German and Czech light lagers. I would probably even cut back the vienna to 30% and use 70% pilsner.

Are you familiar with OiO? The locals here refer to it as Canadian pilsner and say it is indistinguishable from German pilsner. Thanks for the suggestion I’ll go 70% OiO.

Any idea how much difference the 2% carafoam is going to make? I add it to my centennial blonde with good results.

 

[StarsanManiac]

Also if you want some grainy flavor I recommend Melanoidin malt. I use it because I'm too lazy to do a decoction.

I am going for grainy. What amount of melanoidin would you think appropriate?

 

[dfhar]

For the 2% carafoam, you can go either way; I never use it. I honestly believe that carapils/carafoam/etc is unnecessary for good foam, because a good fermentation (oxygenate well, pitch lots of fresh yeast, control temperature) will minimize the amount of foam-destroying byproducts produced by the yeast such as fusel alcohols and protein-destroying enzymes.

See here: https://byo.com/grains/item/693-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques

I wouldn't exactly call melanoidin malt "grainy". It's more of a deeply browned bread crust flavor. If you use some, keep it below 2-3%. Pilsner malt is where you're going to get the grainy flavor; even vienna is more toasty/sweet/nutty than grainy.

 

[StarsanManiac]

For the 2% carafoam, you can go either way; I never use it.

I could definitely be convinced to drop the carafoam. I've done pale malt and Vienna SMaSH and both had good sticky head. I do a herms mash, use pure oxygen and now I have a fermentation temp control solution. I have the carafoam for my Biermuncher Cent Blonde which always turns out well, but may not need it their either. Thanks.

 

[dfhar]

If you're using a HERMS, try a Hochkurz mash. I really prefer it for my lagers.

Mash at 2 qt/lb

130 F for 10 minutes
145 F for 30 minutes
160 F for 60 minutes

 

[fermentology]

I am going for grainy. What amount of melanoidin would you think appropriate?

I usually use about 2.5%, but you could use a little more, it all kind of depends how malty you want it and the color you're going for in the end.

This was the grain bill for my Helles, which had a nice malty character to it.

8.5 lb - German - Bohemian Pilsner (85%)
0.75 lb - German - Munich Light (7.5%)
0.5 lb - German - Acidulated Malt (5%)
0.25 lb - German - Melanoidin (2.5%)

Munich malt will also provide some grainy flavor.

 

[fermentology]

If you're using a HERMS, try a Hochkurz mash. I really prefer it for my lagers.

Mash at 2 qt/lb

130 F for 10 minutes
145 F for 30 minutes
160 F for 60 minutes

That's what I used when I actually did a decoction.

In case the OP is interested here was my procedure.

 

[StarsanManiac]

If you're using a HERMS, try a Hochkurz mash. I really prefer it for my lagers.

Mash at 2 qt/lb

130 F for 10 minutes
145 F for 30 minutes
160 F for 60 minutes

I tried the 40/60/70 (104/140/158 F) as my first batch, bit off more than I could chew. It was a bit of a disaster from a temperature ramping standpoint, but it still made beer. Now 8 batches later I have my crush figured out and get not great but acceptable recirc, maybe I should try something like this.

I found the max utilization of my 10gal Rubbermaid to be 29L water to 11kg of grain, fills it almost to the brim. I do that every time in order to make the max possible amount of wort, then optionally dilute. That’s 2.6L/kg, or 1.26 qt/lb. No doubt mashing thinner would help recirc, but at the cost of making less beer. Should I be mashing thinner for lagers?

Won’t the mash be mostly done before I even start the step to 160? The best temp ramp I could achieve is probably 1F / min, so by the time I get to 145 I’m already 25 minutes in.

I’ve been tempted to try mashing in 130 to 140 range and just start a ramp up to mash out, but slow enough to keep it under 160 for 60min. Is that something people do?

 

[dfhar]

I think you would be fine doughing in around 125-130 and ramping up at 1 degree per minute to 145, holding for 15 or so min, and then ramping up to 160 and holding that for 45-60 min. You will get a clear, highly fermentable wort (appropriate for a continental light lager) that is not lacking in body or foam due to the extra glycoproteins extracted during the prolonged rest at 160.

If your system can handle recirculating the mash at that thickness and your goal is to brew a lot of beer, then I think you're okay. Most German breweries nowadays employ a Hochkurz mash at a thickness around 2 quarts per pound, so maybe try it both ways and see which you prefer.