My first lager in the planning... Vienna/Amber.

[FattyLumpkins]

So I'm finally in a position to start doing some lagers. Starting my planning phase, looking at brewing in September. Looking at doing a Vienna lager in more of an American/Belgian Amber finish. Recipe seems solid, really working more on temp. regulation & stabilizing. Without buying an external thermostat for my fridge I think I can get ballpark to my desired primary ferment temp (approx. 53F).
The recipe:

Amber/Vienna Lager
Batch size: 6 U.S. Gallons
Technique: Will work for BIAB w/ sparge or All Grain
Efficiency: 70%
Boil: 90 min.
O.G.: 1.052
F.G.: 1.011
ABV: approx. 5.5%
Water profile: Balanced as per Brewer's Friend

4 lbs. Vienna malt
4 lbs. Pilsner malt
3 lbs. Cara 30
1.5 lbs. Abbey malt
1 oz. Hallertau Herschbrucker, AA 3.5, 60 min.
.5 oz. Saaz, AA 4.0, 30 min.
1 tsp. Irish Moss
1 pkg. Safale S-23 lager yeast

3 Qt. starter @ 55F
Infusion strike at 122F (15 min.), decoctions for 140, 155 and Mash Out.
122 is my BG rest. Decoction boils are all 15 minutes. The 140 and 155 rests are 30 min. each. Typical mash out.
Cool wort to 55F, pitch yeast. Roughly 14 days in primary; 24-48 hours @ 60F (diacetyl rest); 5-6 weeks lagering @ 40F. Age in bottles for 4-8 weeks.

 

[eluterio]

Triple Decoction! HOLY cow buddy go for it and plan for a very long day. Should be a very interesting beer would love to see the final results!

 

[Gavin C]

Dry yeast and a massive starter. Why not a second pack of dry. You will get more yeast that way by rehydrating alone and don't need to use 330g of DME for the starter. Less yeast with 1 pack and a 3qt starter.

Best of luck with the decoctions. Hope it goes well

 

[Bassman2003]

I would like offer some kind advice - 1st lager and triple decoction just seem like they do not go together. Just sayin'

Why go through all of that work on your 1st lager? Why not make the 1st one normally then if it is lacking do the same recipe again with the triple monster?

I also second the idea of 2 packs of yeast instead of starter stuff.

Lagers are about technique and cooling. I would say you want to cool the wort to under 50f, pitch then try to keep your temps.

Also, is there a reason for the temps you selected in your mash profile? They might be trending towards creating a thinner beer. Not that it matters, just wanted to check but I usually do 131f, 145f and 160f and 170f mashout.

Cool.

 

[jahdub]

I agree with a 2nd pack of dry yeast. There's really no sense making a huge starter for almost the same cost as a pack of dry yeast.

If you choose to make a starter, everything I've read has said to grow starters at room temperature. Reducing to 55F wouldn't be necessary or ideal.

 

[giraffe]

You can definitely skip the mash out decoction with no effect on the final beer. I usually use an infusion to reach mash out temp. With the malts you are using, id move the protein rest up to 131. That would be much more reasonable.

Pitching enough yeast is more important in lager-land, 2 yeast packs is fine, or if you want to make a starter, lager starters are made at room temp. Id try to keep fermentation temps around 50 if you can (I have never used s-23, but I find 50F best for most german yeasts, and 47-48 for most czech yeasts) If you cant 53-55 will work, make sure you do a diacetyl force test after you think youve finished your d-rest before crashing.

Most of my lagers with a proper pitch wont take 14 days in primary. Watch it, when the krausen falls and the gravity is dropped 50-75% of the way to the final gravity, you can start raising for a d-rest.

But the big problem here, is what is up with the 25% Crystal 30? Lager yeasts dont attenuate on average as much as ale yeasts, and vienna lager is a dry beer. I use 0-5% crystal in my amber lagers. and when I use its usually a dark crystal for a czech style amber. Really for you first lager, id rethink that unless you are really sure thats a good idea; it is certainly non-standard.

 

[wobdee]

Yeah, way too much crystal for my taste.

 

[brewing_clown]

I would use a third of the crystal and, if you insist on a decoction, go easy on yourself and do a Hochkurz instead of a triple.

 

[FattyLumpkins]

Been neglecting this thread for a while, so I figured I better update it. JUST NOW read your replies. Funny how things work out...
I did wind up going with a starter. 2 lbs. of Abbey malt single infused to make 1 gallon of starter. Worked out perfect. A bit of a chore, but I'd rather do it the hard way and learn something than the easy way and miss that lesson.
Thought about the mash schedule. I wound up doing a double decoction mash and changing some temps around. Went with a BG rest at 128, sacchirification rest at 150 and mash out at 165. Brewed this about three weeks ago. In the secondary and lagering at 40F for a week now. Another 4 weeks and I think it should be ready to bottle.
I tried my butt off to get the wort chilled to 50F before I pitched. My well water just wasn't up to it, and we were completely out of ice, so 54F was as close as I was going to get. It worked out, though.
So far, there is only one thing vaguely off; the color is more brown than red. That would be the Abbey malt, I suppose. Had a mispicked order a few batches back, and I've been playing around with the stuff ever since. My son is absolutely sick of oatmeal with Abbey malt in it...
The little taste I got when I transferred last week makes me think the flavor profile is pretty damn close to what a Vienna is/ought to be. The crystal malt percentage does seem high, I agree. However, I was using more traditional recipes as a template to formulate my own. The percentage I used didn't travel too far off of the bulk of the recipes that I found. I just figured I'd go with it and give it a try; no risk, no gain.
I'll keep you posted to how it turns out.

 

[canadian006]

I actually just made my first lager on Monday and used a process similar to yours.

I'm trying to make a very plain and boring lager to start with
It is a very simple recipe:
10lbs Pilsner
1 oz hallertau @60
.75 hallertau @15
.75 hallertau @ 0

Protein rest 130 degrees
Low mash 142 degrees
High mash 158 degrees

The wort was chilled to 46 degrees before pitching my yeast starter that was made using light DME.

I have no idea if it's going to work out but so far it seems to be going well.
A lot of people I talk to have not been able to make a drinkable lager at home. Hopefully I'll be the exception lol

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1444878641.539496.jpg

 

[FattyLumpkins]

Looks like it was chugging right along, canadian006.
The Vienna turned out so-so. Slightly underscored, but I know what happened there. I read my temperature too low when I was priming, and let it condition a tad too warm.
Flavor is solid; a touch too much residual sweetness, but nothing bad. Very drinkable.
I'm still having issues getting good head on my beers. Not just this one, but almost all of them. Gonna look around here and elsewhere online for possible solutions. But a quick question for everyone; could the percentage of Crystal malts be the problem? Or is there something else afoot here?

 

[eluterio]

Looks like it was chugging right along, canadian006.
The Vienna turned out so-so. Slightly underscored, but I know what happened there. I read my temperature too low when I was priming, and let it condition a tad too warm.
Flavor is solid; a touch too much residual sweetness, but nothing bad. Very drinkable.
I'm still having issues getting good head on my beers. Not just this one, but almost all of them. Gonna look around here and elsewhere online for possible solutions. But a quick question for everyone; could the percentage of Crystal malts be the problem? Or is there something else afoot here?

Add some wheat malt no more than 10% to your recipe. That what I do to all of mine and have had great success with head retention.

I just brewed my Vienna and did a single decoction. Used Vienna and munich with a touch of pilsner malt and for the color I added about 3oz of carafa II for color adjustment. Crystal malt will add some sweetness to it and an earlier post mentioned the beer should be dry.

Wish I can do a bottle swap when mine is ready for you to try out!

 

[FattyLumpkins]

Well, eluterio, I know where you are at geographically. I go to Irrigon a lot, so hit me up before the first of April and we will see if we can meet up in Umatilla or Pendleton!