I brew for my brother and he picked up the ingredients for his latest brew. However, he froze the hops and yeast instead of just the hops. Oops. The yeast was in his freezer from Thursday until today. Is that yeast dead? I've read conflicting stuff online about frozen yeast viability. Anybody here have success pitching yeast that had been previously frozen that long? I thawed it out at room temp and now smacked the pack. My theory is if I don't see anything inflate by this time tomorrow, it's best to pick up a new pack of Wyeast, but if it looks nice and puffed up, I'm going to pitch it. Underpitching some on wheat beers I kind of like doing - think you get better flavors that way.
My brother froze my yeast
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GoeHaarden
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Did it freeze solid? I think I'd do the same thing with letting it puff up, and decide from there.
I'm pretty sure there is someone on HBT who routinely freezes his/her yeast. Claim to never have any problems but I forget who it is...
I'm pretty sure there is someone on HBT who routinely freezes his/her yeast. Claim to never have any problems but I forget who it is...
When freezing yeast there's usually some glycerin involved...
Cheers!
Cheers!
GoeHaarden
The best advice is unsolicited
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I could swear I read someone freezes their recycled yeast cake slurries just straight up. Maybe I'm mistaken...
You should ALWAYS make a starter when using liquid yeast:
Look up "shaken not stirred" starters. You can make a pitchable starter in a gallon jug with a 1-1.5 quarts of starter wort in 12-24 hours. If you have pure oxygen, even better.
- To make sure it's viable
- Ramp up cell count
- Overbuild to save some out for your next starter
Look up "shaken not stirred" starters. You can make a pitchable starter in a gallon jug with a 1-1.5 quarts of starter wort in 12-24 hours. If you have pure oxygen, even better.
That surely isn't a good sign. You could make a step up starter, but it takes time.
If you want to brew soon, buy another pack. And definitely make a starter from that, regardless of Wyeast's claims that one pack is enough to pitch. Those "shaken not stirred" starters are as easy as you can shake a milkshake. You only need a large enough vessel so you get tons of foam. Use good sanitation of course.
MX1
Texas Ale Works
This is my write up of the "James Bond" starter....only way I do them now.https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=22055.0
From Adventures in Homebrewing in Michigan (great customer service/deals if you've never heard of them)...
Hi Ed,
I'd try the starter. Our owner did a little expirement with 10 yeast packs years back where he left them in his garage, in Michigan, on a shelf, so they warmed well over 100 degrees and froze in the winter. These were all beyond their best by date as well. When he built starters on each pack, all 10 took off without issues.
A good starter with lots of aireation should see the yeast taking off within 24-48 hours.
Aaron
Adventures in Homebrewing
580 S. Mansfield, Ypsilanti, MI 48197
23869 Van Born RD, Taylor, MI 48180
6071 Jackson Rd, Scio Township, MI 48103
(313) 277 BREW (2739)
http://www.HomeBrewing.org
However, the bad part is while my smack still shows no signs of inflation, I had planned to make the starter per AIH's suggestion. However, I am out of DME and swung by my local homebrew store (5 minutes from my house) but they were closed. They had a sign on the door saying they would be closed on July 4. I guess either they took the week off or who knows what, but now I can't make the starter or get new yeast as I'm not going to have AIH ship me new liquid yeast as it'll probably die in transit. I guess I'll just use my 05 I have on the wheat and call it good...
Hi Ed,
I'd try the starter. Our owner did a little expirement with 10 yeast packs years back where he left them in his garage, in Michigan, on a shelf, so they warmed well over 100 degrees and froze in the winter. These were all beyond their best by date as well. When he built starters on each pack, all 10 took off without issues.
A good starter with lots of aireation should see the yeast taking off within 24-48 hours.
Aaron
Adventures in Homebrewing
580 S. Mansfield, Ypsilanti, MI 48197
23869 Van Born RD, Taylor, MI 48180
6071 Jackson Rd, Scio Township, MI 48103
(313) 277 BREW (2739)
http://www.HomeBrewing.org
However, the bad part is while my smack still shows no signs of inflation, I had planned to make the starter per AIH's suggestion. However, I am out of DME and swung by my local homebrew store (5 minutes from my house) but they were closed. They had a sign on the door saying they would be closed on July 4. I guess either they took the week off or who knows what, but now I can't make the starter or get new yeast as I'm not going to have AIH ship me new liquid yeast as it'll probably die in transit. I guess I'll just use my 05 I have on the wheat and call it good...
I would highly recommend getting new yeast, almost all of it is likely dead, and those that survived likely have damaged cell membranes/walls and will be very low vitality. Not worth risking an entire batch to save a couple buck. Bite the bullet and grab a new pack, you will not regret it.
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Yeah, that's probably the best way to look at it - I won't regret buying new yeast while I could regret adding damaged / weak / not enough yeast. If I did make a starter for the frozen pack (which still show no signs of life) and I did see some foaming action when I shake it up, would that foaming action mean the starter is viable and/or strong enough? I don't want to buy new yeast if I don't have to, but I'm certainly not going to screw up a batch in an effort to save $8. Part of me says do the starter thing just to see what happens, but pitch a new pack to be safe.
On a stir plate or with intermittent shaking on the countertop that would be a sign of it being alive, yes.
With the shaken-not-stirred method, no, you're creating a lot of the foam, so it would be inconclusive. The only way you can tell there it's viable, IMO, is by the starter becoming denser and lighter in color and an increased yeast layer forming on the bottom during a rest period.
I do think the appearance of the foam is different when yeast grows/ferments, it's denser, smaller and longer lasting bubbles, than from just shaking.
Sorry your LHBS is closed, no brew friends or homebrew club members around? I'd give you some.
You could do a small mash in a pot in a warm oven and boil the resulting wort for 5 minutes... Add 1/4 tsp of nutrients, like 50/50 DAP/Epsom Salt.
I guess in all my years as a homebrewer I never never noticed that my local shop isn't open on Mondays, or they changed their hours recently. Anyway - they should be open here in 10 minutes so I'll run up there and get some DME and pitch the iffy smack pack. If it looks good by Thursday, I'll pitch it into the wheat beer. If I have doubts, I'll run back up to the store and buy new yeast that day and pitch that.
Northern Brewer wrote this:
Mike W (Northern Brewer)
Jul 3, 08:31 CDT
Hi Ed,
They can often survive a freeze if they are allowed to slowly thaw in the fridge, and then get activated as usual. I guess I'd make a yeast starter, and try to save it. Give the starter extra time, as it may be slow. But if it ferments the starter, it should be okay to use. If the starter really never does much of anything, I'd go ahead and replace it. It would not be worth losing the batch over, if the yeast is not in good health. Have a good one, and a nice 4th!
I went to my LHBS to pick up some DME and the guy said there is "no way the yeast can survive freezing or extreme heat. It's dead."
I am not sure who to believe, so what I've decided on is this: I bought a new smack pack of 1010 and the DME. I'll make a starter for the frozen pack as an experiment for myself just to see if it can revive. Now, the "experiment" won't be perfect as I won't be pitching the previously frozen yeast into a 5-gallon batch, nor will I know what types of off flavors it creates - it'll simply be to see if it can ferment the starter. But, I figured I WON'T regret using fresh yeast. Did I just waste $8? Maybe, but I'd rather waste $8 than 5 gallons my brother wants in his keg.
Mike W (Northern Brewer)
Jul 3, 08:31 CDT
Hi Ed,
They can often survive a freeze if they are allowed to slowly thaw in the fridge, and then get activated as usual. I guess I'd make a yeast starter, and try to save it. Give the starter extra time, as it may be slow. But if it ferments the starter, it should be okay to use. If the starter really never does much of anything, I'd go ahead and replace it. It would not be worth losing the batch over, if the yeast is not in good health. Have a good one, and a nice 4th!
I went to my LHBS to pick up some DME and the guy said there is "no way the yeast can survive freezing or extreme heat. It's dead."
I am not sure who to believe, so what I've decided on is this: I bought a new smack pack of 1010 and the DME. I'll make a starter for the frozen pack as an experiment for myself just to see if it can revive. Now, the "experiment" won't be perfect as I won't be pitching the previously frozen yeast into a 5-gallon batch, nor will I know what types of off flavors it creates - it'll simply be to see if it can ferment the starter. But, I figured I WON'T regret using fresh yeast. Did I just waste $8? Maybe, but I'd rather waste $8 than 5 gallons my brother wants in his keg.
That, at least IMHO, is the wrong way to go about liquid yeast. Make a starter, regardless. Overbuild it so you can save some out for a next (overbuilt) starter, etc. etc. Even without reuse that single pack can easily produce 5-10 adequately sized starters. 100 billion cells at packaging may end up 60-70 billion at time of purchase, not even close to half the number of cells a 5.5 gallon 1.050-1.060 batch of beer needs.
Along or after your production starter, build a starter from the frozen pack for reference, for experimental purposes, if you want. But don't rely on it for your brew in 2 days. It may take a week to build that to a pitchable amount.
Mike W, the NB guy, deserves credit.
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Also, Wyeast says that not all packs even when fresh will fully inflate. Though there should be some because the yeast will produce some co2. Also a pack that arrives partially inflated is not bad.
The gravity of the ale I'm making on Thursday is only 1.044: https://www.homebrewing.org/Summer-Wheat-Beer-Special_p_1223.html
From Wyeast: 7. Do I need to make a starter for an Activator?
No. The Activator is designed to deliver professional pitch rates (6 million cells/mL) when directly added to 5 gallons (19 L) of wort. (<1.060 at 70 °F/ 21 °C). However, if a package is slow to swell, suspected of being mishandled, or if the date is approaching the six month shelf life, it is a good idea to build the culture up with a starter. High gravity or low temperature fermentations require higher pitch rates. This can be achieved with inoculating with additional packages or making a starter.
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My LHBS guy said he doesn't bother with starters under 1.055, especially not with Belgians or wheats. If I was going to use this strain in a future batch I'd make a starter to keep some for a future batch, but all that's on the horizon for me now is an amber where I'm using 05 and Caribou Slobber where I'll use 1332. I guess making a starter won't HURT the wheat for my brother though, but I don't think it's necessary given the modest gravity of the ale. Plus, the date on the new smack pack is mid June so I can't fathom it won't be just fine as is.
From Wyeast: 7. Do I need to make a starter for an Activator?
No. The Activator is designed to deliver professional pitch rates (6 million cells/mL) when directly added to 5 gallons (19 L) of wort. (<1.060 at 70 °F/ 21 °C). However, if a package is slow to swell, suspected of being mishandled, or if the date is approaching the six month shelf life, it is a good idea to build the culture up with a starter. High gravity or low temperature fermentations require higher pitch rates. This can be achieved with inoculating with additional packages or making a starter.
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My LHBS guy said he doesn't bother with starters under 1.055, especially not with Belgians or wheats. If I was going to use this strain in a future batch I'd make a starter to keep some for a future batch, but all that's on the horizon for me now is an amber where I'm using 05 and Caribou Slobber where I'll use 1332. I guess making a starter won't HURT the wheat for my brother though, but I don't think it's necessary given the modest gravity of the ale. Plus, the date on the new smack pack is mid June so I can't fathom it won't be just fine as is.
I'm not the only one who goes by a yeast calculator instead of just the LHBS' advice or even the yeast labs' claims on their packages, although I will take White Labs' (fairly recent) viability tests regarding their Pure Pitch packs into account and adjust either the "Production Date" or "Cell Count" fields accordingly to reflect the higher viability, due to age, of those.
Just an observation, no pressure to follow these guidelines:
BrewUnited's yeast calculator tells us 156 billion cells needed for 5 gallons of 1.044 wort. 171 billion for 5.5 gallons.
A fresh pack Wyeast contains between 100-120 billion cells. Packaged Mid June: 85% viability. That mean 85-102 billion cells expected currently, if stored and handled optimally.
Just an observation, no pressure to follow these guidelines:
BrewUnited's yeast calculator tells us 156 billion cells needed for 5 gallons of 1.044 wort. 171 billion for 5.5 gallons.
A fresh pack Wyeast contains between 100-120 billion cells. Packaged Mid June: 85% viability. That mean 85-102 billion cells expected currently, if stored and handled optimally.
Absolutely no sign of viability 20 hours after pitching frozen yeast into the starter. I'll transfer that experimental starter into a gallon jug to see if it ever does anything between now and the end of the week. In the meantime, I smacked the new 1010 pack this morning and within 90 minutes it's already ballooned up nicely. Hoping I can make a starter for this one before I leave for a July 4 bbq, but of course my wife is using all 4 burners on the stove right now... Murphy's Law. If I don't get a starter going today, I'll just throw the inflated pack back into the fridge and use it tomorrow. Is there any benefit to making a starter without a stir plate the morning of brew day? I would just shake it up every now and then during the brewing process.
I don't think you would get a significant cell count increase, but it would get the yeast energized and ready to ferment the beer.
But, IMO not worth the effort or the DME.
Search "Vitality Starter". You are starting with a fresh pack that the manufacturer recommends direct pitch, doing a starter the morning of should help. If you want, wait until the next day to pitch. I've done both with success.
That ^, if you only have time to make a starter on brew day or the day before.
Either a vitality starter (ala Brulosophy) or the shaken-not-stirred method will help to revitalize the yeast, perhaps grow some extra cells. The key is to prepare the yeast for the big job ahead, even if it's only 1.044, there's a lot of it! And aerate or oxygenate that wort right before pitching.
Make sure to only pitch yeast or yeast slurry into wort when their temps are within 10°F from one another. Within 5°F is preferred. This helps to prevent "little mutants syndrome," one of the main causes of stalled or incomplete fermentations. This applies to both starter and main batch wort.
I made a starter on July 4 for today's brew day. The pack inflated within 2 hours of pulling it from the fridge on July 4, but I never really saw any foaming during the day yesterday or even this morning. There was a hint of a krausen though when I came home last night. Hopefully it did something. Whatever. Normally when I make starters they get good n' foamy while shaking. I am also going to test the gravity of the frozen yeast starter just to see where that is. I never saw any foaming in that one either.
There is a noted difference between fermentation and optimizing yeast growth. The latter needs a constant oxygen (air) supply. Once that's depleted it starts to ferment (anaerobically) and causes krausen (foam). It's normal that it takes a few hours to a few days for krausen to form, a starter is no different. When making starters we keep incorporating O2 (air) to stimulate cell multiplication (through budding), although some fermentation happens concurrently.
Are you using a refractometer to measure gravity? A hydrometer sample would use way too much starter losing lots of cells, unless you take precautions to keep everything sanitary and reuse the hydrometer sample. Make sure to sample the clear beer from the top, with not too much suspended yeast.
Are you using a refractometer to measure gravity? A hydrometer sample would use way too much starter losing lots of cells, unless you take precautions to keep everything sanitary and reuse the hydrometer sample. Make sure to sample the clear beer from the top, with not too much suspended yeast.
I am using a hydrometer to measure the frozen yeast starter's gravity. I am not going to measure the healthy smack pack's gravity as I'm confident that will be just fine. I just find it a little curious that basically both starters showed the same amount of foam. However, the smack packs' inflation (or lackthereof) to me was a very clear indicator of one pack being strong and healthy and the other being very weak and/or dead.
The 1010 healthy starter is doing its thing - saw activity about 6 hours after pitching. It's going to town this morning - about 20 hours post pitch. Later today I'll check the gravity on that frozen yeast starter. I'm guessing if it's 1.010 or so the yeast was fine. If the starter is still around 1.030-1.035 it's best to toss that yeast and consider frozen yeast worthless. However, if the starter is down to 1.010 or so, I might as well keep that yeast, yes?
The frozen yeast starter was down to 1.010. Has anyone ever drank starter wort? It tasted pretty rough, so if I want any of the yeast from this batch, I'll harvest/wash from the primary in 2 weeks after the healthy yeast has done its thing. Still, I guess it's good to know that frozen yeast can survive and ferment - not sure if the yucky tasting starter was due to yeast's health or not, but frozen yeast after added to a starter can ferment beer. So, I guess my homebrew store guy who said frozen yeast "is dead" was dead wrong...
A starter is only DME and no hops run at temperatures good for the yeast but bad for making beer. I hear that a lot do drink the starter beer. I am not one of them! Warm flat low ABV non hopped "beer" is not what I would like.
MX1
Texas Ale Works
With my shaken not stirred starters, while not a balanced product, the starter beer is fine.
If it ever smells off or taste off I don't use it, why would I want that in my beer?
If it ever smells off or taste off I don't use it, why would I want that in my beer?
I did not use/save the starter wort. My question was if starter wort's yucky flavor was an indicator that the yeast was not very good even though it fermented the starter. Again - if I want to keep any of the 1010 I'll harvest n' wash from the currently fermenting batch that was made with fresh 1010 and used to make a starter the day before brew day.
Can't tell you. I have never tasted a starter "beer". But, I would not expect it to taste good either.
I recently tasted two starters, they were good. But I was stepping up and let them ferment completely and flocc out. I was just drinking un-hopped beer.
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