mash ph to low?

[bailey mountain brewer]

this morning i started brewing a baltic porter, i did my salt additions and ph adjustment (using acid malt) according to beer smith. i took my mash ph reading at about 10 to 15 min into the mash, cooled the sample to 70f and it came in around 4.8, i use a digital ph meter with atc. so i obviously need to make some adjustments but my question is how is this gonna effect my outcome?

 

[thehaze]

Dark beers - due to the amounts of crystal/caramel and roasted malts ( which are more acidic than base malts ) - do not require acid adjustments to lower pH. Dark beers benefit from a mash pH between 5.3 and 5.6, so around 5.5 is where you want to be. As roasted malts are acidic, they will lower pH. You simply need - when required - to add something to raise pH, like baking soda. A 4.8 mash pH is not neccessarily bad, but it could work in your detriment, creating a more sour tasting beer. Final beer pH is also important and yeast will determine it. But mash pH can have an important impact on beer. It is too late now to add any salts/minerals. I know you can add some baking soda to the final beer, but how well it will work, I don't know. You will have to test it out, by pulling a sample and adding some baking soda to it.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

i see so when i entered my numbers into beer smith i should have set my desired ph for this style at 5.5 instead of 5.2, if i were to add baking soda should i do that in the boil or in the fermenter?

 

[thehaze]

Best to add it during the mash. If you are past that step, I would say not add it at all now. You could maybe dose a bit of baking soda to the finished beer, and test if it smoothens it out. But it depends heavily on whether the final beer will develop sour notes.

 

[cire]

Measure the pH of your wort as it is run off. If you sparge take readings as you sparge and of the wort in the FV before pitching your yeast. Those readings are more valuable than an early reading of the mash. If that last reading is at pH 4.8, don't worry. the yeast will be quite happy.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

got it, i will continue to check the ph value thanks guys for your input. i wont add anything else at this point and see what my ph is in my fermenter and go from there. really appreciate the help!

 

[mabrungard]

There are a couple of problems with an overly low mashing pH. The first is that it causes excessive proteolysis and that can reduce your beer’s body. The other thing is that low pH makes roast flavors sharper and more acrid.

I find that dark beers (except Irish dry stout) are better when you mash in the 5.5 to 5.6 range.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

There are a couple of problems with an overly low mashing pH. The first is that it causes excessive proteolysis and that can reduce your beer’s body. The other thing is that low pH makes roast flavors sharper and more acrid.

I find that dark beers (except Irish dry stout) are better when you mash in the 5.5 to 5.6 range.

thank you for the input. i have been brewing for 10 years and just now getting into the water chemistry portion of it to take my beer to the next level. obviously have a lot to learn and i really appreciate you all helping me along the way. this part of brewing has been the most complicated for me but i imagine as time goes on i will get it figured out... my ph reading into the ferment was 4.6 at 70f. i have brewed this beer several times in the past but that was before i started taking ph readings so i dont have a comparison but i put all the information that you all have provided into my brewing notes so when i do the next one i will be better prepared to hit the proper ph levels.

 

[cire]

pH 4.6 is low for post boil, but not the end of the world for a stout. Many are brewed like that without either measurement or concern. One danger of low pH is low attenuation during fermentation. You might find that one finishes a little higher gravity than it would otherwise reach, but it should be fine and for the next brew a little alkalinity will get pH in a better place.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

well i can certainly deal with that. i build starters for all my beers and use yeast nutrient when needed... should i use nutrient or do a second dose of yeast to help with this or would it be a moot point?

 

[cire]

What has happened should not spoil your beer. A low pH during the mash results in a greater proportion of complex sugars which is not necessarily undesirable. If you are concerned, which I would not be, then maybe let the temperature rise a little more during fermentation.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

interesting. ok, the optimal temp for the yeast i am using is 65f to 68f and i am set at 67f on my temp controller. i think i will leave it there and if it free rises over 68 then so be it. it is in my basement so the fermenter wont get any warmer then 71.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

all my other numbers for this brew day were on point, my mash temp held 155 throughout, my og was 1.078 as expected, efficiency was 80% so all those numbers i am happy with and feel like it will be a good beer. time will tell but my concern overall is much less after getting some responses. i suppose it is time SBRAHAHB

 

[cire]

all my other numbers for this brew day were on point, my mash temp held 155 throughout, my og was 1.078 as expected, efficiency was 80% so all those numbers i am happy with and feel like it will be a good beer. time will tell but my concern overall is much less after getting some responses. i suppose it is time SBRAHAHB

Yes, all otherwise looks well and 80% efficiency for a 1078 beer is very good. I got no better for a 1046 stout brewed on Wednesday. It was 1011 on Saturday Morning, having peaked at 72, and is currently sitting at 53 for the yeast to gently drop out before being casked in the next day or two. The temperature is currently 48 where I brew.

Total conversion would soon complete at pH 4.8 as that isn't too far from optimum for alpha amylase. However, for beta amylase, that is near to where it's performance in converting complex sugars to fermentable ones is more limited.

Mash pH is frequently spoken of for its effect on flavor, and while it does, it is probably better to influence flavor by ingredients and to look at the effect changes in pH has on processes in the mash and those influences. This might be of interest.

 

[cire]

This is possibly worth a read too.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

This is possibly worth a read too.

thank you for the links! i just got done reading the first one you sent. very informative, i will get to the second one on my lunch break. thanks again for all the help and input. fermenter was bubbling this morning, about 12 hours after pitch. i use a conical so i cant actually see how active it is. i dont normally take ph readings after the mash as this is all new to me but i will be taking one with each gravity reading from now on. it is a good piece of information to have and will help me to understand the entire process better.

 

[couchsending]

Ummm I’m not sure sure. I tend to agree with @mabrungard on this one. If this was a pale beer, sure the focus on optimizing pH for conversion and efficiency is correct and a low Ph during the mash probably wouldn’t have that big of an effect on the over all flavor of the beer. However for darker beers low pH especially during the mash can have a more pronounced effect on the flavor and especially astringency of the beer.

Your water would have to be pretty bad for brewing in order to have to add Acidulated malt to the grist for a dark beer with a decent percentage of roasted malt. Are you using tap water or RO/Distilled?

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

i use tap water which i have a private well and is treated, i put my ward labs profile in beer smith and used the "london water" target profile. it calculated my salt additions and showed the addition of acidulated malt to correct the ph. i just went with what beer smith calculated. knowing what i have learned in the past 24 hours wellll obviously i should not have done that. i definitely may have used the ph tool wrong, i am not blaming beer smith, this was my first time messing with the water chemistry side of things and my well water has made good beer for the past 10 years. i am wanting to perfect my process and seems i did the opposite in this case.

 

[cire]

I, too, use tap water, with alkalinity enough to require reduction before brewing any beer. I don't use pH prediction software, each has limitations, so ensure sufficient calcium is present for the style being brewed and longevity of essential mash enzymes, then adjust the alkalinity to suit. pH readings taken during the brew are recorded and if/when brewing that beer again with exactly similar ingredients, then make any necessary minor adjustment.

BMB, would you care to post your water analysis?

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

sure thing.
will post attachment

 

[cire]

Wow, it would seem your supply goes through a water softener and it would likely be better for brewing if it didn't. The level of alkalinity suggests acid malt could be used to advantage, the lack of calcium means it should not. Did you add much calcium to the mash or mash liquor?

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

i did not bring all my notes with me to work so i dont have exact amounts right now, but yes i did add some calcium. it does go through a softener and this is a big reason why i want to get my water additions figured out so i appreciate any input.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

here is a repost of the water report

 

[cire]

Basically a softener replaces calcium and magnesium with sodium while all other minerals remain unchanged. That includes alkalinity, which increases mash pH to potentially be responsible for astringency, so no benefit there. Calcium, and to some degree magnesium, lower mash pH and calcium also protects enzymes from premature denaturing at mash temperature and therefore the duration they survive and the degree of influence they have.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

i see, along with my softener there is another tank that it runs through that takes limestone, if that is of any help, i assume that is a ph neutralizer.

 

[cire]

I'll assume that tank is there to neutralize any acid that would otherwise attack your pipework. With the level of alkalinity in your water it is unlikely to contain any significant acidic component.

 

[day_trippr]

Acid and alkalinity can coexist. My well pH runs around 6.2 while the residual alkalinity is over 200. I have a neutralizer in front of the softener...and brew with 100% RO from my 100gpd system...

Cheers!

 

[cire]

Acid and alkalinity can coexist. My well pH runs around 6.2 while the residual alkalinity is over 200. I have a neutralizer in front of the softener...and brew with 100% RO from my 100gpd system...

Cheers!

Yes, it can be looked at in that way. Your and my water are very similar in that respect. Water to my home is from a private water company and direct from the tap it is also about pH 6. Left in open air, by the next day it will read pH 7+ with the same meter. It also has a level of alkalinity frequently more than 200 mg/L as CaCO3 and when titrated using a strong acid is pH circa 4.4 when all of its alkalinity has been neutralized.

Those with soft water, such as that collected from the surface of igneous rock, will have little or no alkalinity present. In such cases, pH might also be around 6 or maybe less, but with no alkalinity to neutralize the acid present, it may instead eat into the pipework and fittings. In such cases it is vital to fit a neutralizer as you have.

Our dishwasher is fitted with an ion exchange water softener, but all else uses it as supplied. For brewing, alkalinity of my tap water is reduced by food safe sulfuric and/or hydrochloric acids. This has been commonplace in UK since 1880 when tax on malt was replaced by taxation on extract achieved in the mash tun when water treatment was no longer considered to be tax avoidance.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

as expected fermentation has slowed and is currently sitting at 1.028 after 7 days. i will check it again tonight to verify it is done but i believe it is. i did not check the ph on the last hydro reading but will check that tonight also. i did taste it and it definitely has some astringency .. i typically will drop the yeast out then leave this one sit for 2 weeks before kegging, is that still best practice here or any other suggestions? OG was 1.077 btw ... being a baltic porter i could age it a bit, maybe oak chips or vanilla? i dont know, anything to help?

 

[cire]

So far, so good, 64% apparent attenuation, it might have been worse. I'm surprised you can taste astringency, that is more usual when mash pH is too high.

After eight days it is time to consider how you might get it off the yeast, some has sedimented and others will be dead and leaching their innards. There will still be enough left to scavenge what can, while also producing some more alcohol. Not sure what yeast was used, but the effect can be quite dependent upon the particular strain.

It's got to about 6.5% ABV, probably not what you were expecting, so a bit of finishing needed. You could add a dry beer enzyme, although the result can be quite random and sometimes go too far to produce a thin and over-strong beer. I'd likely add some dextrose while preparing to get it into another vessel or vessels to gently clean-up and naturally carbonate prior to racking into whatever the final receptacle might be.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

i have a conical so i just open the valve and out it goes. beer enzyme as in a yeast nutrient? i happen to have some dextrose and yeast nutrient on hand. astringency wrong word, acrid i suppose better word. i used white labs wlp002 english ale.

 

[cire]

No, not a nutrient, but an enzyme that will convert those complex sugars to fermentable ones. This is the sort of thing I mean, but what and where in the USA I don't know.

WLP002 is a really splendid yeast in this circumstance. It is robust and flocculates well when done. I'd certainly feed it some dextrose to see how it responds while deciding your next step.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I see, ok I dont have that on hand but I will feed it and see if I can't grab some from my lhbs in the meantime. Thanks again

 

[cire]

Good luck. You've time on your side as that beer will need several months to reach its best.

Acridity is not something I'd expect in a stout or porter unless the liquor was high in sulfate. In any case it's still very young and even though fermentation has slowed significantly, a lot of cleaning up that will be done by the yeast.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Ok, great. Thanks again for your input. I'm gonna drop sediment out and add the dextrose tonight then let it ride for a while. I have a sample port on my fermenter so I taste occasionally to see how its progressing. I'm not the best at flavor descriptions... something I need to work on.

 

[cire]

Never mind the descriptors, work on the brewing that you need just one word, ecstasy.