Looking for recipe/water advice

[premington]

Hi All!

I've put together a recipe for an American Ale, and before committing it to the mash tun, I thought I'd pass it by all of you for opinions on the recipe and water adjustments. This is my first all-grain brew, so I thought it might be wise to get suggestions before I dive in and make it.

Bru'n Water has been my guide for the water, and I'm using BeerSmith for the recipe (I double the water info in there too).

I'm also interested in the water ion concentrations and pH. Do people feel adjusting the strike and sparge water to 5.4 prior to it touching the grain is the right thing to do?

I don't care for IPAs or overly hoppy beers, so I've tried to lean things away from it being hop forward. I do like a relatively crisp, clean, and dry ale though. On a hot summer day, a cold Miller or Bud is refreshing. This is what the recipe is about.

Here's the recipe:

Yield into fermenter: 6 gallons

- 8 lbs. 2-row
- 1.5 lbs. Vienna malt
- 1 lb. Crystal 20L
- 1 lb. rice (flaked)
- .5 lb. wheat (flaked)
- Cascade, 60 min.
- Willamette, 10 min.
- Wyeast 1272 American Ale II yeast

Here's my water. The water is surface water that's been through a three-stage filter that includes a carbon block plus UV. It's clean, has no smell, and is delicious!

From Ward Labs

pH: 7.7
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 178
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.30
Cations / Anions, me/L / 2.7

*#rs in ppm
--------------
Sodium, Na 22
Potassium, K 1
Calcium, Ca 29
Magnesium, Mg 7
Total Hardness, CaCO3 102
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 5
Chloride, Cl 39
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 79
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 65
Total Phosphorus, P 0.01
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01

Alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3): 66
Residual alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3): 41

Bru'n Water adjustments bring the above numbers to:

Adjusted pH: 5.41

Calcium, Ca 84
Magnesium, Mg 14
Sodium, Na 22
Sulfate, SO4-S 82
Chloride, Cl 98
Bicarbonate, HCO3 N/A

Water adjustments would be made using gypsum, calcium chloride, and Epsom salt. A mild lactic acid addition would be added to both the strike and sparge water to adjust for 5.41.

Looking for any and all comments. Thanks for taking the time to read this and for all your help!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Do people feel adjusting the strike and sparge water to 5.4 prior to it touching the grain is the right thing to do?

Adjusting strike water to pH 5.4 prior to malts addition = NO
Adjusting sparge water to pH 5.4 = YES (though I would more likely adjust it to ~ pH 5.6)

 

[Gnomebrewer]

10% crystal won't be crisp and refreshing - why not try the cream of three crops recipe from the recipe database? It's a tried and true recipe that sounds like what you want.

For your water, add some gypsum to get to 50ppm Calcium (you need a bit of sulfate in your water, not so much chloride). No other salt additions. Add lactic acid to your sparge water to get a pH of 5.6 to 6.0. Use a calculator to work out how much to add to the mash to get a MASH pH of 5.4 (not the strike water).

 

[Gnomebrewer]

If you went with the cream of three crops recipe, halving the amounts in the recipe (it's for 11.5gal) and mashing with 2.5 gal of water, you'd need:
1g of gypsum in the mash, 2g added to the boil.
2mL of 88% lactic acid in the mash.
0.3mL of 88% lactic acid per gallon of sparge water.

 

[ajdelange]

Adjust the strike and sparge water to mash pH first? Yes, absolutely. That's takes care of the water's alkalinity (and lets you determine what its alkalinity is if you know the strength of the acid used and measure it carefully). In addition to that it compensates for temporal changes in alkalinity level to which you water may very well be subject.

Next do a test mash with the adjusted water to determine how much acid is required for the grains and you are there WRT acid addition.

Having taken care of the alkalinity we can move on to the chloride and sulfate. Chloride level is good but you are also blessed with low sulfate. If you want to goose that before brewing, do it but my advice is always to try the beer with low sulfate first and test it in the glass to see if you might like it better with more. If you think it's better with more add more, in amount scaled from the taste test, to the next batch of this same beer. Further tweaks may be necessary.

Skip the Epsom salts unless you are seeking the sour bitterness of the mangesium ion. Some like it in some beers.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Based upon several posts that the OP had made to another thread prior to moving this here, I don't believe the OP understands that a combination of the water and the grains plus an acid or caustic adjustment (if/as required) is what results in a mash pH of 5.4. Rather, I was firmly of the opinion that the OP somehow believes that mashing at a pH of 5.4 is as simple as adjusting the strike water to a pH of precisely 5.4 before adding the malted grains and adjuncts. That is why I answered as I did above.

 

[premington]

Based upon several posts that the OP had made to another thread prior to moving this here, I don't believe the OP understands that a combination of the water and the grains plus an acid or caustic adjustment (if/as required) is what results in a mash pH of 5.4. Rather, I was firmly of the opinion that the OP somehow believes that mashing at a pH of 5.4 is as simple as adjusting the strike water to a pH of precisely 5.4 before adding the malted grains and adjuncts. That is why I answered as I did above.

That is correct... I'm learning, so my understanding isn't always right, which is why I talk with all of you!

The water pH issue is an interesting one for me to grasp. Bru'n Water is suggesting lactic acid in the strike an sparge water. I know that as the conversion takes place, the grains settle in on their own pH, but what I thought is the water pitched at dough-in should be at the pH you hope the mash settles in at.

Most everyone says no pH adjustments to the strike water, so I'm hesitantly ready to pull that addition out of Bru'n Water and just strike with a higher pH water. Removing the lactic acid will bump up the pH I think to about 6.8 or so with the other water additions I have. Everyone pretty much universally says to sparge with 5.4, so I'll definitely do that.

ajdelang (AJ) commented, "Adjust the strike and sparge water to mash pH first? Yes, absolutely. That's takes care of the water's alkalinity (and lets you determine what its alkalinity is if you know the strength of the acid used and measure it carefully)." I do know the strength of the acid, and the addition is very mild.

This is exactly how I understood I was supposed to be doing with this mash. It seemed logical to me to adjust the water to 5.4 prior to adding it at dough-in. I understand that the mash will settle in on its own pH, whatever that'll be. I planned to do pH readings to track everything. I'm not just following a spreadsheet and tossing stuff in unchecked.

So the majority feels it's best to leave lactic acid pH adjustment alone and dough-in with a higher pH water. Unless I'm misunderstanding, AJ feels it's best to adjust both the strike and sparge water, which is what Bru'n Water recommends. John Palmer states in his water book that it's generally not necessary to adjust the water pH added to the mash. In his online video where he brews an all grain at Northern Brewer, he states it's generally not necessary to adjust acid at sparge. Yet, in his water book, he talks about the importance of pH adjustments at sparge.

As you can see, the conflicting information is pulling me in multiple directions, making me wonder which to do. Perhaps there is no single definitive answer?

AJ; thanks for the test mash recommendation. I've never done one. I'll look into how it's done. I assume I create a very small mash with all the grains and adjustments scaled down and then measure what I get. Oh, I'll also look into removing the Epsom salt from the recipe. I'll see if I can tweak things in a way that I don't need to add that. Definitely don't want a sour beer... Thanks for sharing that.

Gnomebrewer: I'll check out the Cream of Three Crops recipe. I kinda' wanted to try whipping up my own recipe for fun just to see what I get. But, in doing so, I looked at TONS of other recipes to see what grains and hops were added. So I'll take a look at the one you recommended.

Excellent comments, everyone... THANK YOU!!!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

This is only an oversimplifying generalization, but lighter colored grains (malts) will bring the mash pH up above 5.4, and darker colored grains will bring the mash pH to at or below 5.4. Your grain bill has mostly light colored grains, and on top of this your water has alkalinity (which is measured as ppm CaCO3, and not as pH), so your mash will settle in somewhere above 5.4 pH. To achieve 5.4 will require some acid addition. It is best to compute this addition up front, and add it to the strike water as AJ recommended. With your light colored grain bill, the strike water may have to be closer to pH 4.5 in order to mash in at a pH of 5.4. But do not dwell at all upon the strike waters pH, as it is only the mash pH that matters. Your window of acceptability here spans from 5.2 to 5.6 pH. That's why most target the midpoint of 5.4.

We do not know your chosen strike or sparge water quantities, or your chosen level (quantities and types) of mineralization, so calculating the "nominal" (as in ballpark) acid additions for both is not fully possible due to this missing information.

 

[mabrungard]

Adjust the strike and sparge water to mash pH first? Yes, absolutely.

While AJ's approach can work if you are using acid malt in your mash, its completely inaccurate advice for those that don't. For pale grists, the water's alkalinity and resulting pH prior to grain addition can be quite low. In fact, for many pale grists the water pH is likely to be less than 4.5 prior to grain addition. The water's alkalinity is effectively 'negative' meaning that all the water's carbonate buffer system is exhausted and there is a surfeit of protons in the water.

For the typical American Ale, some degree of drying in the beer's finish is desirable. Figuring out how dry you prefer that finish is the question. I do recommend starting with a modest sulfate content with a new recipe since you can always add more sulfate to a finished beer, but can't take it out. I suggest boosting sulfate to around 200 ppm is a decent starting point for pale ales.

To allow you to assess what sulfate level you prefer, I suggest that you add gypsum directly to a glass of beer. A tenth of a gram of gypsum in 16oz of beer will raise the sulfate content by about 100 ppm. For those of you without a scale to measure this TEENY amount of gypsum, an approximation of that amount is to add one small pinch of gypsum between index finger and thumb to the glass.

With respect to the pH/alkalinity of your sparging water, your tap water has far too much alkalinity. Therefore, you should acidify that water to the point that it's alkalinity is less than about 25 ppm. The pH of the sparging water is not really the criterion you should focus on. Low sparging water alkalinity is the real target.

 

[ajdelange]

While AJ's approach can work if you are using acid malt in your mash, its completely inaccurate advice for those that don't.

It is perfectly good advice for most brewers most of the time. If it is good enough for Chico Brewing it is good enough for them. It has nothing to do with the form of acid used to overcome grain alkalinity i.e you can use liquid acid, sauermalz, sauergut or the acid from high kilned malts.

For pale grists, the water's alkalinity and resulting pH prior to grain addition can be quite low.

They can? Most pale malts have a DI mash pH in the range 4.6 - 4.8 and buffering of, on average, 45 mEq/kg&#8226;pH. This means alkalinity of 0.2*45 = 9 mEq/kg to 0.4*45 = 18 mEq/kg malt for the total mash to pH 4.5. A typical mash for a 5 gallon batch might contain 9 lbs of a basemalt (example I'll use here is Weyermann's pneumatic pils) and 1 lbs of a crystal/caramel malt (20L in this exmple) with 3 gal of water. If that water be RO water or water treated to mash pH 5.4 the proton deficit of the base malt (whole mash) is 40.5 mEq of which the caramel can make up 7.5. It would take around 18% 80L malt to neutralize the proton deficit of 82% pale malt. This is, to my way of thinking, getting away from 'pale' beers.

Now if you are using 20% or more dark malts then you may want to modify your procedure and do a test mash with the raw water. Add the required acid (or base) resulting from this titration to the raw water before mashing.

These results are for 0 alkalinity water WRT mash pH. You aren't going to mashing with any water that has alkalinity lower than that. And yet....

In fact, for many pale grists the water pH is likely to be less than 4.5 prior to grain addition.

What are we smoking today? Where does one find such water as this? Adjacent to a mine with runoff problems perhaps. And how does the pH of the water 'prior to grain addition' relate to the color of the grist?

The water's alkalinity is effectively 'negative' meaning that all the water's carbonate buffer system is exhausted and there is a surfeit of protons in the water.

If the water has been adjusted to pH 4.5 or if the source water has pH 4.5 or less (which would violate EPA standards) it's alkalinity will be 0 by definition. We advocate neutralizing to mash pH of about 5.4 - 5.5. At this point alkalinity will be about 10% of what it was in the source water but proton deficit WRT mash pH will be 0.

With respect to the pH/alkalinity of your sparging water, your tap water has far too much alkalinity. Therefore, you should acidify that water to the point that it's alkalinity is less than about 25 ppm. The pH of the sparging water is not really the criterion you should focus on. Low sparging water alkalinity is the real target.

The criterion for your sparging water is that it should not impose a proton deficit on your wort i.e. have 0 alkalinity WRT wort pH. This means it should be at wort pH and, thus, it should be adjusted to mash pH if you want to do things properly. If we use RO water alkalinity is nearly 0 so we don't have to worry about this. If we use water with appreciable alkalinity to the point that we feel we must acidify it and we take it to say pH 5 - 6 we are on the flat part of the titration curve so we don't have to concern ourselves overly that we wound up with pH 5.6 rather than 5.4.

 

[premington]

Okay... I think I'll give it a go for this brew, partly as an experiment, and strike with 5.4 water. I'm curious to see what pH I get with this grain bill. If I understand AJ's reply correctly, I'll reduce the temp of a sample of the first runnings, test for pH, and then adjust the sparge water to match the measured mash pH.

AJ: I removed the Epsom salt from the recipe and replaced it with magnesium chloride. To keep things balanced, I adjusted the gypsum amount to bring the sulfite levels back up (sulfite addition lost when I pulled Epsom salt). I have both about equal (sulfate: 93, chloride: 100). Just paranoid of having a hop-forward beer.

And your replies are rich with detail. I like that.

 

[bkboiler]

lots of information on here! I'm very impressed with how quickly you're picking up the water adjustments premington. Took me years to finally get it...
Would your water contain chlorine or chloramine? May want to treat with a campden tablet. If the active carbon filter has enough contact time then maybe you dont need to, but if it's municipal water then you likely will..

 

[Gnomebrewer]

AJ: I removed the Epsom salt from the recipe and replaced it with magnesium chloride. To keep things balanced, I adjusted the gypsum amount to bring the sulfite levels back up (sulfite addition lost when I pulled Epsom salt). I have both about equal (sulfate: 93, chloride: 100). Just paranoid of having a hop-forward beer.

And your replies are rich with detail. I like that.

Adding Magnesium chloride, gypsum and Calcium chloride is the same as adding Epsom (Magnesium sulfate) and Calcium chloride. You are adding Calcium, Magnesium, sulfate and chloride ions. From memory (without re-reading his post) AJ said he doesn't like adding sulfate or Magnesium, which would mean adding Calcium chloride as the only salt (to raise the Calcium). This is a reasonable course of action for your water. I personally prefer some sulfate - I'd add gypsum instead of Calcium chloride (it's a personal preference thing).

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Okay... I think I'll give it a go for this brew, partly as an experiment, and strike with 5.4 water. I'm curious to see what pH I get with this grain bill. If I understand AJ's reply correctly, I'll reduce the temp of a sample of the first runnings, test for pH, and then adjust the sparge water to match the measured mash pH.

AJ: I removed the Epsom salt from the recipe and replaced it with magnesium chloride. To keep things balanced, I adjusted the gypsum amount to bring the sulfite levels back up (sulfite addition lost when I pulled Epsom salt). I have both about equal (sulfate: 93, chloride: 100). Just paranoid of having a hop-forward beer.

And your replies are rich with detail. I like that.

Are you still hooked on dialing in your strike water to pH 5.4 instead of dialing in your mash to pH 5.4?

 

[premington]

Are you still hooked on dialing in your strike water to pH 5.4 instead of dialing in your mash to pH 5.4?

Well, I don't know how to measure for alkalinity or RA without any reliable carbonate reading, so the only thing I can see to do is adjust the pH and keep things balanced using the Bru'n Water spreadsheet. I'm still learning all the techniques of how to do this, but it seemed the only options at my disposal are to adjust the ion concentrations. After I do this, it leaves me at a pH of 6.8, which requires an acid addition to bring the pH down. One the conversion takes place, then my carbonate levels drop dramatically. Don't I need to know the carbonate amount to calculate for alkalinity?

I'm kinda' stuck between two views. One is do nothing with the pH, which many advocate. The other is to adjust the pH. I understand that what is most important is RA, but how do I calculate for that after I've messed with the ion balance?

 

[premington]

Adding Magnesium chloride, gypsum and Calcium chloride is the same as adding Epsom (Magnesium sulfate) and Calcium chloride. You are adding Calcium, Magnesium, sulfate and chloride ions. From memory (without re-reading his post) AJ said he doesn't like adding sulfate or Magnesium, which would mean adding Calcium chloride as the only salt (to raise the Calcium). This is a reasonable course of action for your water. I personally prefer some sulfate - I'd add gypsum instead of Calcium chloride (it's a personal preference thing).

Ahhh... Okay... I didn't know that. I figured I might get some push back on adding magnesium chloride. I've read a few threads here where a lot of banter went back and forth regarding adding MC. I figured I'd add it to the balance, then report it to all of you and see what people say.

I'll mess with removing it and further see how to balance things out. Balancing things gets tricky. It often leaves a gap where some numbers look good while others are off.

 

[premington]

lots of information on here! I'm very impressed with how quickly you're picking up the water adjustments premington. Took me years to finally get it...
Would your water contain chlorine or chloramine? May want to treat with a campden tablet. If the active carbon filter has enough contact time then maybe you dont need to, but if it's municipal water then you likely will..

Thank you... Although I have soooo much to learn and understand! I'm not a chemist, nor have I ever taken Chemistry. I'm a writer... Words are all I know. So this aspect of making beer is a challenge. I'm just glad there are educated and smart people here to help guide us neophytes.

I run my water through a three-stage filtration system that has a carbon block and UV. Our local water adds chlorine (not chloramine), but the filters I chose removes this, so I'm good to go without correcting for chlorine/chloramine.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Well, I don't know how to measure for alkalinity or RA without any reliable carbonate reading, so the only thing I can see to do is adjust the pH and keep things balanced using the Bru'n Water spreadsheet. I'm still learning all the techniques of how to do this, but it seemed the only options at my disposal are to adjust the ion concentrations. After I do this, it leaves me at a pH of 6.8, which requires an acid addition to bring the pH down. One the conversion takes place, then my carbonate levels drop dramatically. Don't I need to know the carbonate amount to calculate for alkalinity?

I'm kinda' stuck between two views. One is do nothing with the pH, which many advocate. The other is to adjust the pH. I understand that what is most important is RA, but how do I calculate for that after I've messed with the ion balance?

You are way overthinking this, in conjunction with seriously wrong thinking this. Please provide me with your recipe, your water profile, your intended mash and sparge water volumes, your planned mineral adjustment quantities (for mash and sparge water independently), and I will tell you my suggestions with regard to how to adjust your strike water to yield a mash at a nominal 5.4 pH, and how to adjust your sparge water to a pH of 5.5. My suggestions to you will come from my own personal mash pH adjusting spreadsheet.

Edit: I see much of this in your first post. All I need is your intended volumes for mash and sparge, and your intended mineral additions to same.

 

[premington]

You are way overthinking this, in conjunction with seriously wrong thinking this. Please provide me with your recipe, your water profile, your intended mash and sparge water volumes, your planned mineral adjustment quantities (for mash and sparge water independently), and I will tell you my suggestions with regard to how to adjust your strike water to yield a mash at a nominal 5.4 pH, and how to adjust your sparge water to a pH of 5.5. My suggestions to you will come from my own personal mash pH adjusting spreadsheet.

Edit: I see much of this in your first post. All I need is your intended volumes for mash and sparge, and your intended mineral additions to same.

Yes... I posted most if this earlier, but I think you found that.

The mash volume comes to about 4 gallons with a sparge amount of about 6 gallons. Minerals I think I need to rethink, since I'm told magnesium chloride (MC) isn't the best option. So with MC and lactic acid off the table, my additions would be only gypsum and calcium chloride (CC).

My starting filtered tap numbers are sulfate at 5 and chloride at 39. I was adjusting these two using gypsum, CC, and MC. But I don't want chloride over about 100 and am keeping my sulfate about balanced. The way I have the gypsum, CC, and MC amounts now, sulfate is 93 and chloride is 100. With MC off the table, the chloride level drops below where I'd hoped to be. If I raise the CC numbers to make up for the chloride deficiency, the calcium level raises.

Sodium levels are 22, and I've left this untouched. If I adjust using NaCl, then I'm adding sodium. I suppose I could do this to get chloride levels up. I didn't really want to up my sodium levels from where they are, although maybe that's the right thing to do. This is why I went to lactic acid. After adjusting all the other additions, Bru'n Water reported pH at about 6.8, so I used lactic acid to make up for this.

As for ion balance, I've been following amounts recommended from a variety of sources, but Palmer's Water book and also his online podcasts and brewing videos have been a big influence on the levels I've chosen.

Thanks for taking the time to help. Much appreciated!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yes... I posted most if this earlier, but I think you found that.

The mash volume comes to about 4 gallons with a sparge amount of about 6 gallons. Minerals I think I need to rethink, since I'm told magnesium chloride (MC) isn't the best option. So with MC and lactic acid off the table, my additions would be only gypsum and calcium chloride (CC).

My starting filtered tap numbers are sulfate at 5 and chloride at 39. I was adjusting these two using gypsum, CC, and MC. But I don't want chloride over about 100 and am keeping my sulfate about balanced. The way I have the gypsum, CC, and MC amounts now, sulfate is 93 and chloride is 100. With MC off the table, the chloride level drops below where I'd hoped to be. If I raise the CC numbers to make up for the chloride deficiency, the calcium level raises.

Sodium levels are 22, and I've left this untouched. If I adjust using NaCl, then I'm adding sodium. I suppose I could do this to get chloride levels up. I didn't really want to up my sodium levels from where they are, although maybe that's the right thing to do. This is why I went to lactic acid. After adjusting all the other additions, Bru'n Water reported pH at about 6.8, so I used lactic acid to make up for this.

As for ion balance, I've been following amounts recommended from a variety of sources, but Palmer's Water book and also his online podcasts and brewing videos have been a big influence on the levels I've chosen.

Thanks for taking the time to help. Much appreciated!

OK, mash water is 4 gallons, and sparge is 6 gallons (but why not just make them both 5 gallons, since odds are that more water in the mash will give better mash efficiency?). That aside, how many grams of CaSO4 (Gypsum) and how many grams of CaCl2 (calcium chloride) do you intend to add to your 4 gallons of mash water?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I really think you're going too heavy handed with the salts....you said in the OP that you wanted a clean, crisp bud like beer. For a pale lager, all you are looking for is the minimum Calcium level - most often quoted as 40 to 50ppm. IMO, you should add a small amount of Calcium chloride or Gypsum to achieve this Calcium level.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I really think you're going too heavy handed with the salts....you said in the OP that you wanted a clean, crisp bud like beer. For a pale lager, all you are looking for is the minimum Calcium level - most often quoted as 40 to 50ppm. IMO, you should add a small amount of Calcium chloride or Gypsum to achieve this Calcium level.

I agree! Water profiles are (in my opinion) more often than not highly misleading, and most of what has been written about them, or what can be found regarding them on the internet, is highly suspect with regard to actual usefulness.

Sadly, I got the distinct impression when reading 'Water' that the authors really didn't understand the subject that they were writing about.

 

[ajdelange]

Okay... I think I'll give it a go for this brew, partly as an experiment, and strike with 5.4 water. I'm curious to see what pH I get with this grain bill. If I understand AJ's reply correctly, I'll reduce the temp of a sample of the first runnings, test for pH, and then adjust the sparge water to match the measured mash pH.

As I noted in my reply to Martin once you get below 6 pH changes in pH have a relatively minor effect on alkalinity so it should be sufficient to prepare the sparge water by setting it to the intended mash pH (e.g. 5.4). Thus you could prepare the whole volume of water you intend to use in advance.

AJ: I removed the Epsom salt from the recipe and replaced it with magnesium chloride. To keep things balanced, I adjusted the gypsum amount to bring the sulfite levels back up (sulfite addition lost when I pulled Epsom salt). I have both about equal (sulfate: 93, chloride: 100). Just paranoid of having a hop-forward beer.

In so doing you keep the magnesium which you probably don't want. Also 100 chloride is getting to be quite a bit. Also don't confuse sulfite and sulfate. These days the LO brewers are adding a lot of sulfite to their beers so you will see both terms used. For normal brewing it is exclusively sulfate that we use in water preparation.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Okay... I think I'll give it a go for this brew, partly as an experiment, and strike with 5.4 water. I'm curious to see what pH I get with this grain bill. If I understand AJ's reply correctly, I'll reduce the temp of a sample of the first runnings, test for pH, and then adjust the sparge water to match the measured mash pH.

A few things to mention here. By the time you take and cool your first mash pH reading, the window of opportunity to further adjust your mash water and retest it has already closed. It takes 20-25 minutes for either to stabilize after making adjustments to change pH.

Determining the DI pH of any grain can be accomplished by crushing 40 grams of malt and then stirring in 100 milliliters of distilled or reverse osmosis water to produce a 1.2 qt/lb ratio mash. Allow the mash to reach equilibrium by letting it settle for at least 20 minutes.

During this time the pH of the mash will change. In general the darker the malt is the higher its acid content and the lower the pH value will be. Conversely the lighter the malt is the lower its acid content and the higher the pH value will be. Think dark roasted malt as lowering pH and light wheat malt as raising pH.

Use a recently calibrated pH meter to take a reading of the test mash at 77F and then record the pH value as the DI pH value of the grain tested.

With that said, depending on your grain bill, the pH of your strike water will be changed when mashed with the grain. The idea is to calculate how to treat your source water in advance so the mash pH settles within the recommended 5.3 to 5.5 ph range at 77F.

 

[Yooper]

Along with the others, I will echo the fact that having sulfate and chloride both near 100 ppm is too much.

I'd go with far less. I'd leave out any magnesium additions (malt has plenty of magnesium, and not to be be added unless you want that sour distinct flavor in some recipes), and target a calcium level of 70-100 ppm or so (for wort clarity and to help prevent beerstone).

I'd use some calcium chloride to get the chloride to 50 ppm or so, and maybe some gypsum if the calcium is under 70 ppm. That's about it. I'd also use phosphoric or lactic acid to acidify the sparge water (you definitely want to do that) to under 5.8 pH.

I'd target a mash pH of 5.4, +/- .1. That's about it. I really think "less is more".

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, in looking at your starting profile you really need not do anything to your water other than bring it to mash pH (add acid to knock out 90% of the alkalinity WRT pH 4.5 or all the alkalinity WRT mash pH. You will need extra acid for the malt alkalinity as determined by the test mash. The result should be an enjoyable beer with which you can experiment adding more sulfate and/or chloride in the glass for future runs of this recipe. This is the conservative approach.

PS: Don't be taken in by the chloride/sulfate ratio thing. Forget you ever heard about it (if you have).

 

[premington]

Yes, in looking at your starting profile you really need not do anything to your water other than bring it to mash pH (add acid to knock out 90% of the alkalinity WRT pH 4.5 or all the alkalinity WRT mash pH. You will need extra acid for the malt alkalinity as determined by the test mash. The result should be an enjoyable beer with which you can experiment adding more sulfate and/or chloride in the glass for future runs of this recipe. This is the conservative approach.

PS: Don't be taken in by the chloride/sulfate ratio thing. Forget you ever heard about it (if you have).

Wow... All great replies!

Yes... I have been influenced by many things I've read about sulfate/chloride ratios. And yes, AJ, I do get the spelling confused... in past posts, I've meant sulfate, not sulfite--my error.

Yooper: You said "less is more". This settles very well with me. I'm not interested in making lots of changes and additions to the water, if I don't need to. As I've said, I'm just trying to learn the ropes, and I've learned that the construct of water is a complicated subject.

The important thing I'm taking away from this is to not stress over the quantity of the ions so much, as long as they're within an acceptable range for the beer style. So rather than focus on the numbers I've manipulated my projected water profile to be, why don't we just start from scratch. I'm at work, so I don't have all those numbers with me, but perhaps we don't need them.

Given the baseline profile I posted at the beginning of this thread, and following Yooper's suggestion, why don't I shoot for a mild addition to chloride and bring that to 50. Is there any harm in matching that with sulfate? My baseline sulfate numbers are very low--5--so I'd need an addition to bring this up to about 50. As I've said, I don't want a hop-forward beer, but a balanced malt/hop profile would be great. I can also get calcium up to between 70 and 100 ppm.

I wasn't aware that my projected chloride levels were a bit rich. This is great to know. The spreadsheet provides a range, which this falls into, but it may not be the best level for all beer styles. Obviously, I want to get things balanced for a lighter American Ale. I just need to learn what levels are appropriate for that beer style.

I'd have to look at the Bru'n Water spreadsheet when reworking the numbers, but hopefully increasing sulfate and a very mild increase in chloride is all I need. The pH will probably be high. I can look into a test mash and see how that goes. I think there's a post here with a recommended approach for that.

As for sparge pH, I can use lactic acid to move this down to just below 6.0. Could do this to the strike water, if people see value in it. I know there have been some differences in opinion on this. My gut is leaning towards a reduction in strike pH, the trick is determining what that would be.

-Paul

 

[ajdelange]

What ultimately counts is not how you get your mash pH to target but that you do get it to target in timely fashion. There are two major things that hold mash pH high. Water alkalinity and malt alkalinity. Pre-acidifying the water to mash pH merely separates out the first of these leaving you with the malt to deal with. It seems a logical way to proceed and will help you to understand how things work but there is no particular reason beyond that to use it if you find, for example, another method easier to understand or implement.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

My method has been to calculate and then adjust the strike water right up front (pre-mash) to 'theoretically' correct for both strike water alkalinity and malt bill alkalinity. If it works out in reality (and you mash at between 5.2 and 5.6 pH) you have achieved a two for the price of one special. And if it doesn't work out, then you take notes and adjust accordingly in preparation for the next time.

 

[ajdelange]

Sadly, I got the distinct impression when reading 'Water' that the authors really didn't understand the subject that they were writing about.

Well they did not accept all the suggestions that were offered.

 

[premington]

OK, mash water is 4 gallons, and sparge is 6 gallons (but why not just make them both 5 gallons, since odds are that more water in the mash will give better mash efficiency?). That aside, how many grams of CaSO4 (Gypsum) and how many grams of CaCl2 (calcium chloride) do you intend to add to your 4 gallons of mash water?

Forgot to reply to this...

Bru'n Water divided it this way. I could do a 50/50 split with 5 gallons in mash and sparge. I figured it had a reason for splitting it this way, so I just went along with it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I tentatively project that you should add 1.5 grams of CaSO4 and 1.5 grams of CaCl2 to each 5 gallons of your water (strike and sparge). Then to the 5 gal. of strike water add 2 ml of 88% lactic acid, and to the 5 gal. of sparge water add 1.4 ml of 88% lactic acid.

Or alternately, add 2.5 grams CaCl2 to both strike and sparge waters, and drop the CaSO4.

 

[premington]

I tentatively project that you should add 1.5 grams of CaSO4 and 1.5 grams CaCl2 to each 5 gallons of your water (mash and sparge). Then to the 5 gal. of strike water add 2 ml of 88% lactic acid, and to the 5 gal. of sparge water add 1.4 ml of 88% lactic acid.

Or alternately add 2.5 grams CaCl2 to both strike and sparge waters, and drop the CaSO4.

Yup! I followed Yooper's recommendation and played around with different additions in Bru'n Water last night. What I came up with for Gypsum and Calcium Chloride additions came to be very close to what you just posted. I reduced Chloride to about 50 and Sulfate to about 43. With only those two additions, projected pH estimates at under 6.0.

As for lactic acid additions, I plan to do a few test mashes to see what results I get.

This is probably all unnecessary and overkill, but I'd like to know for myself, and it's fun, as the hobby should be.

The way I see it, these threads and discussions have uncovered differing opinions on pH additions added to strike water. I understand the water pH doesn't drive the mash pH, but I'd like to see what effect different scenarios have on the mash pH. I'll come in at different strike pH amounts and plot the results.

Then I'll be able to make an educated decision on how to approach my mash with this American Ale.

 

[ajdelange]

I understand the water pH doesn't drive the mash pH, but I'd like to see what effect different scenarios have on the mash pH.

That's not so. Water pH does drive mash pH but the extent to which it does depends on the pH. If it is within the band say 6.6 - 8.3 mash pH depends almost solely on the alkalinity. Outside that band it depends on alkalinity but the pH assumes a more significant role. Thus if you acidify the strike water to mash pH the mash pH will be very different than if you don't and your water is alkaline. Ultimately it is, of course, the alkalinity which counts but you need pH to characterize the alkalinity. I know it sounds complicated and I suppose it is.

As to whether you should acidify the strike water or not that is completely up to you. It is not correct to say acidifying the mash water should not be done. It is a perfectly viable technique used by at least one large brewery I know of. At the same time it is not correct to say that adding the acid to the mash is wrong. Lots of breweries do that.

 

[premington]

That's not so. Water pH does drive mash pH but the extent to which it does depends on the pH. If it is within the band say 6.6 - 8.3 mash pH depends almost solely on the alkalinity. Outside that band it depends on alkalinity but the pH assumes a more significant role. Thus if you acidify the strike water to mash pH the mash pH will be very different than if you don't and your water is alkaline. Ultimately it is, of course, the alkalinity which counts but you need pH to characterize the alkalinity. I know it sounds complicated and I suppose it is.

As to whether you should acidify the strike water or not that is completely up to you. It is not correct to say acidifying the mash water should not be done. It is a perfectly viable technique used by at least one large brewery I know of. At the same time it is not correct to say that adding the acid to the mash is wrong. Lots of breweries do that.

Thanks for the clarification, AJ. As you know, I've received conflicting views on this, which has confused my understanding. Performing a series of test mashes with different pH levels will be an interesting little science project that should show me the effect strike water pH has on the final mash pH.

Glad you're in the forum. You certainly have a lot of knowledge to share!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Your titration testing may not necessarily resolve your confusion, as the buffering capacity of the strike water is far more highly associated with its relative mineralization and alkalinity components than with its pH component. However, as long as all of your batches begin with identical water chemistry, this concern should be negated, as if your strike water is always the same your tests will thereby have meaning with relation to your specific water.

That's why in a new thread I have mused upon what you had initially suggested with regard to adjusting strike water to pH 5.4, as performing this step should to a high degree wipe out the strike waters initial buffering capacity and take it off the table.

Of course I could be all wet with this line or reasoning....

 

[ajdelange]

Thanks for the clarification, AJ. As you know, I've received conflicting views on this, which has confused my understanding.

This is the Internet. There are people here who know what they are talking about and there are people who don't (who are equally confident they do) and people in between. Unfortunately until you reach a certain level of understanding yourself you won't be able to separate these people and can easily be led astray or be confused by the misinformation that persists.

The effect of water on mash pH depends on the amount of bicarbonate present and the pH. The pH tells us the charge on a mole of bicarbonate and the amount of bicarbonate (the number of moles) multiplied by the charge on a mole is the amount of acid we must add. This is the effective alkalinity. To solve for effective alkalinity WRT one pH you must have the amount of carbo and the pH or the alkalinity WRT another pH and the pH. It takes 2 numbers to do a complete characterization. Understanding that alkalinity is the mEq difference between two pH points on the carbonic/bicarbonate/carbonate titration curve is essential to full appreciation of how this all works.