How much Calcium is too much? (BIAB Water Chem.)

[teeWRX]

I've read through a few books & bru'n waters tutorials on water chemistry and have been tweaking my H20 with the help of Beersmith. I've been quite happy so far with how things have turned out, but my salt additions to date have been relatively small. Next recipe on my list is this big imperial stout.

Local water:
Ca=45 Na=6 Alkalinity=125
Mg=2 S04=60
Cl=4 Hc03=152

Using Beersmith to target the "Stout" profile has me adding ~15g of CaCl mainly to hit the profile's Cl level of 340.

I BIAB and have been typically adding any salts to my mash (water vol for this batch is 34L/9gal) because they dissolve more easily. No past issues with efficiency, but i've read CaCl can cause problems with conversion in the mash at higher levels.

Will this 15g if added during the mash likely cause me issues? Should I be considering adding some at another point in the brew? Targeting a different profile maybe?

I'm still a bit of a novice at tweaking my water, any advice from people smarter than me tweaking their BIAB water would be appreciated.

 

[mabrungard]

What!!!!!!! 340 ppm is ridiculous. Don’t even consider going there. Are you sure you read that correctly?

 

[myndflyte]

What does the final water profile look like that you are trying to target? That is a ton of Cl.

 

[schmurf]

I think you probably misread something, maybe mixed Cl with bicarbonate, HcO3?

 

[teeWRX]

My gut reaction was just that "i must be missing something here..." hence why i'm asking before potentially ruining the batch. I'll try to post a couple screenshots here of the profile i clicked to target, and the result. Hope it'll help clarify things.

 

[cire]

340ppm Chloride in a big stout isn't out of the way, but at that level using calcium chloride would add 190ppm calcium. Potassium chloride is used by some renown commercial brewers of Imperial Stouts and chloride levels of 500ppm in finished stout is normal, while the average potassium level in all beers is around 500ppm.

There are very few beers that will benefit with more than 220ppm calcium, so you might consider replacing some of the calcium chloride with table salt.

 

[teeWRX]

340ppm Chloride in a big stout isn't out of the way, but at that level using calcium chloride would add 190ppm calcium. Potassium chloride is used by some renown commercial brewers of Imperial Stouts and chloride levels of 500ppm in finished stout is normal, while the average potassium level in all beers is around 500ppm.

There are very few beers that will benefit with more than 220ppm calcium, so you might consider replacing some of the calcium chloride with table salt.

Useful little chart thanks! My adjusted profile above is only showing ~170 for Ca, wonder where the discrepancy with your number lies? Either way I see what you're saying, definitely have some room to move in the Na department. Any idea at what point the beer would become perceptibly "salty" though? I've not added more than say 1-2g of NaCl to a batch so far so my experience is limited there.

 

[cire]

I stand by my figure for calcium, more in fact. [340/(35.45 x 2)] x 40.078 = 192

As for adding salt, it was common in the past to add salt to dark beers after fermentation. It was said the brewers did it to make drinkers thirsty and drink more beer, but it was for taste. I would imagine you could add more than you might ever need before it would make a dark beer taste salty unless there was already a lot of sodium in the liquor.

 

[mabrungard]

Don't put any correlation between what brewing water chemistry is and a mineralogic assay of beer. Malt supplies very high concentrations of many ions.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Uh, try this instead for a malty/sweet stout:

• Add 60ppm sulfate by adding calcium sulfate.
• Add 110ppm chloride by adding calcium chloride.
• Adjust mash pH to 5.4 with sodium bicarbonate.

This gives 87ppm calcium. Ignore magnesium.

If you want to test more absurd levels of minerals in the beer, I would recommend doing a bench trial before packaging, so you don't ruin the batch.

Cheers

 

[mabrungard]

This gives 87ppm calcium. Ignore magnesium.

If you want to test more absurd levels of minerals in the beer, I would recommend doing a bench trial before packaging, so you don't ruin the batch.

Cheers

I always add a teeny bit of magnesium to most brews, but you can ignore it just as easily in many styles. I find Mg is mandatory when brewing PAs and IPAs.

Both chloride and sulfate are very soluble in beer, and the advice above to conduct bench trials is an excellent way to assess if higher levels of either of those ions would make the beer better. I recommend dosing a whole pint of the beer since that will mean that you'll be more able to weigh out and dose the beer with an amount that you can actually measure.

With accurate measurement, you can then scale it up to fit your batch size when you next brew or to dose your keg.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I always add a teeny bit of magnesium to most brews, but you can ignore it just as easily in many styles. I find Mg is mandatory when brewing PAs and IPAs.

Curious, what's the benefit? Malt adds a whole bunch of magnesium, right? How much are you really changing the final mineral profile?

 

[mabrungard]

You are assuming that the bound Mg in malt has the same effect on flavor as the ionic Mg added to water. It does not.

However, I'll agree that the minor amount of Mg that I sometimes add to my brewing water makes much of a difference in most of my brews. It definitely makes a difference in the PAs and IPAs where its tendency toward sour bitterness is well-suited to those styles.

 

[cire]

You are assuming that the bound Mg in malt has the same effect on flavor as the ionic Mg added to water. It does not.

However, I'll agree that the minor amount of Mg that I sometimes add to my brewing water makes much of a difference in most of my brews. It definitely makes a difference in the PAs and IPAs where its tendency toward sour bitterness is well-suited to those styles.

Magnesium will often add an extra dimension to ales. I like it and wonder why it is so frequently maligned, even when in miniscule amounts.

While this paper is concerned with high gravity fermentations, it does discuss magnesium and other caions in broader terms.

 

[teeWRX]

340ppm Chloride in a big stout isn't out of the way, but at that level using calcium chloride would add 190ppm calcium. Potassium chloride is used by some renown commercial brewers of Imperial Stouts and chloride levels of 500ppm in finished stout is normal, while the average potassium level in all beers is around 500ppm.

There are very few beers that will benefit with more than 220ppm calcium, so you might consider replacing some of the calcium chloride with table salt.

Took your advice and shifted some of the Cl to NaCl. Actually ended up scaling back the total Cl as well to ~260. Here is what my final additions and profile looked like...

No issues with the mash, mash efficiency was ~80%. 3L starter (my liquid yeast wasn't super fresh and calculator estimated only 48% viability, hence the huge starter) chewed through this one, it's down to 1.018 already from 1.092 after only 6 days, very little bubbling in the fermentor now. Hydro sample tastes nice, albeit a bit harsh/alcoholic, I can see why the imperials usually go into secondary for months to mellow. Thanks for the advice fellas. I'll try to remember and update this in 4-6 months when I finally bottle it.