Hop Aroma Off in IPA

[rdg929]

Hey all - posted this in recipes and it was suggested that I bring it over here because I may have a water issue.

Here is my water:

Filtered through whole house filter, then sent to Ward Labs:

Water Profile

Calcium(Ca): 36.0 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 10.0 ppm
Sodium(Na): 12.0 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 9.0 ppm
Chloride(Cl): 22.0 ppm
biCarbonate(HCO3): 115.0 ppm

pH: 7.80

Here is my first post:

Hey all - been browsing for a couple weeks on phone app and loving it. I've been befuddled by my recent IPAs. 3 different beers IPAs, all with plenty of hops but all seriously lacking aroma. I've brewed 30 - 40 beers but took about year off prior to these. Can't say I specifically remember this problem, but was also never thrilled with my IPAs, which is why I am trying so many. All thoughts extremely appreciated!

Details:

All - Whole house filtered water profile in first recipe below from ward labs, keggles, batch sparging, mesh hop bag used for 2 of 3, all 2 packs dry saf-ale 05 no starter, mash temp 151, fermenting at 62 - 65 water bath, primary 2 weeks, secondary 55-60 degrees 1 week with dry hops, to bottle.

Brew 1:
OG - 1.058 FG - 1.010
Anticipated IBU: 96.7
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
86.8 12.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
2.4 0.33 lbs. Crystal 40L America 1.034 40
5.4 0.75 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt 1.033 2
5.4 0.75 lbs. Corn Sugar Generic 1.046 0

Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 oz. Columbus Pellet 15.00 29.3 First WH
2.00 oz. Cascade Pellet 5.75 25.5 30 min.
1.00 oz. Cascade Pellet 5.75 10.1 25 min.
1.00 oz. Summit Pellet 17.60 12.7 5 min.
1.50 oz. Summit Pellet 17.60 19.1 2 min.
1.50 oz. Summit Pellet 17.60 0.0 0 min.
3.50 oz. Columbus Pellet 15.00 0.0 Dry Hop

White Labs WLP001 California Ale

Brew 2
OG - 1.064 FG - 1.012
Anticipated IBU: 93.1

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.7 0.75 lbs. Corn Sugar Generic 1.046 0
83.6 11.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
5.0 0.66 lbs. Crystal 40L America 1.034 40
5.7 0.75 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt 1.033 2

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 oz. Cascade Pellet 5.00 19.8 First WH
1.00 oz. Cascade Pellet 5.75 12.9 30 min.
1.00 oz. Zythos Pellet 10.90 24.5 30 min.
2.00 oz. Zythos Pellet 10.90 25.6 15 min.
1.00 oz. Columbus Pellet 13.90 10.2 5 min.
2.00 oz. Zythos Pellet 10.90 0.0 0 min.
1.00 oz. Cascade Pellet 5.75 0.0 Dry Hop
1.00 oz. Zythos Pellet 10.90 0.0 Dry Hop

1 gram per gallon Gypsum in boil


Brew 3
OG - 1.065 FG - 1.011
Anticipated IBU: 123.2

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.9 0.13 lbs. Crystal 105L Great Britain 1.033 120
88.1 12.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
5.5 0.75 lbs. Cane Sugar Generic 1.046 0
5.5 0.75 lbs. Corn Sugar Generic 1.046 0

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 oz. Columbus Pellet 13.90 30.1 60 min.
1.00 oz. Cascade Pellet 5.00 13.6 35 min.
1.00 oz. Centennial Pellet 8.70 23.6 35 min.
1.50 oz. Columbus Pellet 13.90 24.0 15 min.
1.00 oz. Chinook Pellet 11.80 13.6 15 min.
1.00 oz. Cascade Pellet 5.00 3.6 5 min.
1.00 oz. Centennial Pellet 8.70 6.3 5 min.
1.00 oz. Chinook Pellet 11.80 8.5 5 min.
1.00 oz. Centennial Pellet 8.70 0.0 Dry
1.00 oz. Chinook Pellet 11.80 0.0 Dry
1.00 oz. Columbus Pellet 13.90 0.0 Dry

No Gypsum

 

[mabrungard]

What you are doing does not look out of line. The one thing that concerns me is the level of alkalinity of the water. Its a little high and the resulting mash pH is going to be just a little too high. That can have the effect of leaving the wort pH a little too high and making the hop flavor a little rough. A little acid or acid malt appears needed in the grists described above. Bru'n Water will help you figure out how much acid you need in the mash and sparging water. If you haven't been acidifying your sparge water, that could be a big contributor to your problems via pH and tannin extraction.

 

[rdg929]

This is what my reading this morning was leading me to believe, as well. My original solution was PH 5.2 but then I've read mixed results. If anyone can give me an idea of how I can properly acidify, that would be really great.

Edit - I just noticed the link to Bru'n Water. I'll take a look. Thank you!!

 

[bobbrews]

The one thing that concerns me is the level of alkalinity of the water. Its a little high and the resulting mash pH is going to be just a little too high.

Agreed.

How are his current sulfate/chloride levels for a hop forward IPA, Martin? He claims to sense very little hop character despite using a bunch of hops.

 

[terrapinj]

you may want to experiment either dry hopping a little longer at those temps or warming up to mid 60s or warmer

colder temps will be slower extraction

 

[Thehopguy]

you may want to experiment either dry hopping a little longer at those temps or warming up to mid 60s or warmer

colder temps will be slower extraction

Good catch, I didn't notice that the first time reading through.

Ya at those temps another week of dryhopping wouldn't be out of line at all. You might want to experiment with gypsum to add some more sulfates to your water.

 

[Yooper]

For the batch that had gypsum added, it was only in the boil kettle, not in the mash?

I'd use Martin's spreadsheet, and use some of the salts in the mash to help with the mash pH as well as a bit of acid malt.

I'd use more late addition hops (like in the second recipe) and dryhop for 5 days or so at 68 degrees before packaging.

When you say "off flavor", to you simply mean a lack of hops flavor/aroma, or an actual off flavor? If it's a harshness, I think it's related to the relatively high alkalinity, although it's lower than my tap water! I use RO water for brewing, or at least dilute it my tap water with a great portion of RO water, depending on what I'm brewing.

I'd try diluting the water 50% with RO water for one batch, and making sure the mash pH is around 5.4 at room temperature by adding acid malt and some calcium chloride and/or calcium sulfate (gypsum) according to Martin's spreadsheet.

 

[afr0byte]

I agree with others about the alkalinity/likely high pH. I'd also suggest you try just using one packet (especially for the 1.058 beer), and rehydrating the yeast (just to insure maximum viability). The added yeast will provide more places for hop oils to stick to and drop out with the yeast. I've heard professional brewers actually say that they slightly underpitch their IPAs for this reason. You may or may not want more sulfate (certainly the extra calcium in the mash wouldn't hurt, to help lower the mash pH). I doubt a lack of sulfate is causing a lack of aroma though.

 

[bobbrews]

OP, it would be good if you could elaborate on whether or not you only experienced a lack of aroma, or if you also experienced a lack of overall hop character/focus, including those citrusy/juicy hop flavors as well as the aroma, and/or harsh vs. pleasant bitterness.

 

[rdg929]

Great info I really appreciate it. I would say the hop character isn't harsh but not full and round. Not the resiny juicy hop flavor I get in great commercial examples. Though we were happy with the overall bitterness. For what it's worth, the 2 beers with gypsum used in boil did not seem different from the 1 that did not use gypsum.

 

[rdg929]

All,

I've spent some time on Bru'n water and decided on a lactic acid addition to the hot liqour tank and a gypsum addition directly to the mash. The final numbers I recieve are:

Calcium(ppm)-- 97.4
Magnesium (ppm)--10.0
Sodium(ppm)--12.0
Sulfate(ppm)--156.5
Chloride(ppm)--22.0
Bicarbonate(ppm)--19.6
Cations (meq/L)--6.2
Anions (meq/L)--4.2
Total Hardness --285
Alkalinity (ppm)---59
RA(ppm)--16
SO4/Cl Ratio --7.1

Mash ph - 5.4


How does this look?

 

[bobbrews]

Looks good. I would personally add about 30-40 ppm more chloride for closer to a 2:1 sulfate/chloride ratio, which I find to be great for bitter, hop forward ales.

 

[afr0byte]

I would try it the way you have it. There's no magical sulfate to chloride ratio that's going to suit everyone's tastes. You can always adjust next time.