Help lowering the ABV

[porterguy]

I'd like to cut the ABV to 5% or less if possible in the following recipe (Gordon Strong's Belgian Dark Strong Ale) while maintaining the flavor and complexity as much as possible. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

7 lbs. (3.2 kg) Pilsner malt
3 lbs. (1.4 kg) pale ale malt
2 lbs. (0.91 kg) Munich malt
2 lbs. (0.91 kg) dark Munich malt
1 lb. (454 g) aromatic malt
1 lb. (454 g) crystal malt (40 °L)
2 oz. (57 g) chocolate malt
1 lb. (454 g) dark candi syrup (0 min.)
1 lb. (454 g) amber (brown) sugar (0 min.)
5 AAU Saaz hops (60 min.) (1 oz./28 g at 5% alpha acids)
3.6 AAU Styrian Goldings hops (10 min.) (1 oz./28 g at 3.6% alpha acids)
0.5 oz. (14 g) Saaz hops (5 min.)
Wyeast 3787 (Trappist High Gravity) or White Labs WLP500 (Monastery Ale) or LalBrew Abbaye Belgian Ale yeast

 

[brownni5]

Uh, what? I would be surprised if you cut the ABV in half and still managed to make it interesting. The complexity in big Belgians often comes from the interaction of malt, simple sugars, yeast, and alcohol. Lowering the gravity to attain a low ABV might well sap that complexity.

In my opinion, you'd be better off starting with a Dubbel recipe you like and cutting some of the malt. But what do I know - try it and report back!

 

[TwistedGray]

@porterguy - make the recipe as it then split it in half. Run half of it as you would otherwise, and dilute the other half until you reach an OG that would yield a sub-5% beer. Compare the two beers once carbonated, and then adjust as needed for the next brew.

Edited to add - only change one variable at a time, and in this case you are changing the OG. Everything else should be as close to identical as possible (yeast volume, fermentation temperature, etc).

 

[porterguy]

Uh, what? I would be surprised if you cut the ABV in half and still managed to make it interesting. The complexity in big Belgians often comes from the interaction of malt, simple sugars, yeast, and alcohol. Lowering the gravity to attain a low ABV might well sap that complexity.

In my opinion, you'd be better off starting with a Dubbel recipe you like and cutting some of the malt. But what do I know - try it and report back!

Overall, I agree. But I thought it was worth getting some opinions I believe i've read you can cut back base malts to reduce ABV, but not specialty malts. However, I would think that if you only cut (a large amount of) base malts it would also totally mess up the flavor profile. So...just hoping someone has had some successful approach that would be worth trying.

 

[Beernik]

Plugging the original recipe into my calculator, I get
OG = 1.089
FG = 1.021
ABV = 8.8%
IBU = 17
SRM = 28L

If you straight scale it down, you’re looking at:
4lb Pilsen
1.75lb Pale
1.25lb Munich light
1.25lb Munich dark
9oz Aromatic
9oz Crystal 40L
2oz Chocolate
9oz dark candi
9oz brown sugar
0.7oz Saaz for 60 minutes
0.7oz Golden Stryian for 10 minutes
0.3oz Saaz for 5 minutes

OG 1.052
FG 1.012
ABV 5.2%
SRM 20 L
IBU 16

Thoughts on this scaled down recipe:
1. It’s too much sugar & would result in a thin beer. You may want to mash higher than normal to offset that and/or up the grains & reduce the total sugar quantity to 0.75 to 1lb.
2. Probably should keep the original recipe’s 5 minute & 10 minute hop schedule.


So maybe:
4.25 Pilsen
1.75lb Pale
1.5lb Munich light
1.5lb Munich dark
9oz Aromatic
9oz Crystal 40L
2oz Chocolate
6oz dark candi
6oz brown sugar
0.7oz Saaz for 60 minutes
1oz Golden Stryian for 10 minutes
0.5oz Saaz for 5 minutes

OG 1.053
FG 1.013
ABV 5.2%
SRM 19L
IBU 18

I still think I’d mash higher than I would for a normal BSA.

I think that’s where I’d start and make adjustments from there.

 

[TwistedGray]

I still think I’d mash higher than I would for a normal BSA.

This is important for NA beers, so I would expect it to play a similar role here.

 

[ncbrewer]

Whatever you decide to do with the grain bill, I'd suggest backing off on the IBUs to keep the original BU:GU ratio (bitterness units : gravity units).

 

[Beernik]

Whatever you decide to do with the grain bill, I'd suggest backing off on the IBUs to keep the original BU:GU ratio (bitterness units : gravity units).

Normally I’d agree with you. But 17 IBUs isn’t a lot to start with and this would knock it down to 9, which would be American Lite Lager range.

it doesn’t seem like it would be enough.

 

[porterguy]

Plugging the original recipe into my calculator, I get
OG = 1.089
FG = 1.021
ABV = 8.8%
IBU = 17
SRM = 28L

If you straight scale it down, you’re looking at:
4lb Pilsen
1.75lb Pale
1.25lb Munich light
1.25lb Munich dark
9oz Aromatic
9oz Crystal 40L
2oz Chocolate
9oz dark candi
9oz brown sugar
0.7oz Saaz for 60 minutes
0.7oz Golden Stryian for 10 minutes
0.3oz Saaz for 5 minutes

OG 1.052
FG 1.012
ABV 5.2%
SRM 20 L
IBU 16

Thoughts on this scaled down recipe:
1. It’s too much sugar & would result in a thin beer. You may want to mash higher than normal to offset that and/or up the grains & reduce the total sugar quantity to 0.75 to 1lb.
2. Probably should keep the original recipe’s 5 minute & 10 minute hop schedule.


So maybe:
4.25 Pilsen
1.75lb Pale
1.5lb Munich light
1.5lb Munich dark
9oz Aromatic
9oz Crystal 40L
2oz Chocolate
6oz dark candi
6oz brown sugar
0.7oz Saaz for 60 minutes
1oz Golden Stryian for 10 minutes
0.5oz Saaz for 5 minutes

OG 1.053
FG 1.013
ABV 5.2%
SRM 19L
IBU 18

I still think I’d mash higher than I would for a normal BSA.

I think that’s where I’d start and make adjustments from there.

Thanks to all! I don't have that knowledge level. That's exactly why I posted I on here.

 

[Dgallo]

Cut the base malt by 60% and the specially Malt s by 30%. This will drop the abv greatly but still maintain a lot of the flavor you get from your full recipe. A lot of people think scaling down proportionally makes for an equivalent beer but it just doesn’t From a flavor stand point, you need to preserve most of your specialty malts to do so

 

[Beernik]

Cut the base malt by 60% and the specially Malt s by 30%. This will drop the abv greatly but still maintain a lot of the flavor you get from your full recipe. A lot of people think scaling down proportionally makes for an equivalent beer but it just doesn’t From a flavor stand point, you need to preserve most of your specialty malts to do so

I think I’m ≈65% on base malts, 60% on specialty malts, ≈38% on sugar.

I also think we can all agree going from 8.8% to 5%, there is going to be a flavor difference. The question is: what compromise is the brewer going to make?

Here’s why I made the compromises I made:
1. I kept the base malt high and cut the sugar because too much sugar in a low ABV beer is thin to me. The max total sugar I’d put in a 5% beer is 1lb.
2. I cut the specialty malts a little more because I worry about the flavor becoming muddled with all the different ingredients & I don’t want the reduced sugars getting lost.
3. I kept the bitterness up because Belgian beers are usually above 15 IBUs.

I’d expect to brew & adjust the recipe 2 - 4 times before being completely satisfied with the modified recipe.

 

[TurnipGreen]

I make a lot of lower abv beers and I recommend you lower the IBUs. I’m sure some one can explain it better than me, but when you’re balancing a beer’s malt to hops, a smaller grain bill will also need a smaller hop ratio, not simply less IBUs.

It’s low to start, but you’re still shooting for a malt forward beer. So, I’d drop it to maybe 12ish. Try not to think of the IBU as a number but rather a ratio with the grain bill and original gravity.

 

[TwistedGray]

I make a lot of lower abv beers and I recommend you lower the IBUs. I’m sure some one can explain it better than me, but when you’re balancing a beer’s malt to hops, a smaller grain bill will also need a smaller hop ratio, not simply less IBUs.

It’s low to start, but you’re still shooting for a malt forward beer. So, I’d drop it to maybe 12ish. Try not to think of the IBU as a number but rather a ratio with the grain bill and original gravity.

This!!

I make extremely low ABV beers hovering at non-alcoholic levels. If you split your ABV in half, you wouldn't split your hops in half; It would actually require less hops.

As a lesson learned, I still have about a dozen bottles of Mosaic Bombs. I'd give you $5 for every one that you could drink without washing it down with anything else.

 

[porterguy]

Looking at all comments, I came up with the recipe below. Original mash schedule was step mash 144 for 45 min., then 158 for 15 minutes. If I raise mash temps, how much? Comments? Thoughts?

3 lbs. Pilsner malt
1.25 lbs. pale ale malt
1.4 lbs. Munich malt
1.4 lbs. dark Munich malt
.7 lb. aromatic malt
.7 lb. crystal malt (40 °L)
1.4 oz. chocolate malt
.5 lb. dark candi syrup (0 min.)
.25 lb. amber (brown) sugar (0 min.)
3 AAU Saaz hops (60 min.)
2.0 AAU Styrian Goldings hops (10 min.)
0.5 oz. (14 g) Saaz hops (5 min.)