Helles with American hops?

[Djangotet]

Hey! I plan to make a Munich Helles. I don’t care about style guidelines, just taste. What are you thought about using whole leaf American hops like Mosaic, Cascade, or Citra? Otherwise I would use noble hops. Also, what do you think of the recipe in general? I’m pretty new, I used a balanced water profile that’s slightly malty. Here is what my grist looks like:

 

[Miraculix]

Helles is all about malt and balance. If you use American hops, they will overshadow the malt. You might use a tiiiiny amount, that might complement the malt a bit. But if you want to make sure it is going to taste like a helles, a well attenuated malt driven light coloured beer, then you'd better stick to noble hops without much late additions.

Not sure about the biscuit, have not used it myself but I think it is not necessary if high quality base malt is being used.

Pay extra attention to the yeast. Imperial Yeast has the Augustiner strain called Harvest, that one makes a marvelous Helles.

 

[Djangotet]

Helles is all about malt and balance. If you use American hops, they will overshadow the malt. You might use a tiiiiny amount, that might complement the malt a bit. But if you want to make sure it is going to taste like a helles, a well attenuated malt driven light coloured beer, then you'd better stick to noble hops without much late additions.

From a pure taste perspective do you think it would taste like an American blonde ale? Isn’t a Helles and a blonde ale pretty similar?

 

[Miraculix]

From a pure taste perspective do you think it would taste like an American blonde ale? Isn’t a Helles and a blonde ale pretty similar?

Kind of regarding grain bill, but buy yourself a blonde and a good Helles, like Augustiner for example or Spaten, and taste them side by side. Imo, they are worlds apart.

I added something to my last comment, after you quoted me, sry, forgot that initially.

 

[Djangotet]

Kind of regarding grain bill, but buy yourself a blonde and a good Helles, like Augustiner for example or Spaten, and taste them side by side. Imo, they are worlds apart.

I added something to my last comment, after you quoted me, sry, forgot that initially.

Thanks for your help, I will try using a single oz of mittlefruh at 60 and I can always experiment with blondes later.

 

[tracer bullet]

FWIW, I wouldn't suggest a person has to stick to a style. But I would suggest to consider that the different beers are made different ways for a reason. Malt, hop and yeast combos have come together over time because they work well together.

 

[Djangotet]

FWIW, I wouldn't suggest a person has to stick to a style. But I would suggest to consider that the different beers are made different ways for a reason. Malt, hop and yeast combos have come together over time because they work well together.

That makes sense, I think I will play it safe this time. I like to roll the dice and try new things but it’s totally expensive when it doesn’t go well. Maybe I can do a small batch for that stuff.

 

[Miraculix]

That makes sense, I think I will play it safe this time. I like to roll the dice and try new things but it’s totally expensive when it doesn’t go well. Maybe I can do a small batch for that stuff.

I experiment a lot but usually I find out that the traditional way became traditional for a reason and that it's usually hard to beat. I can imagine a hint of American hop flavour complement a helles well, but it has to be subtle.

 

[Protos]

Hey! I plan to make a Munich Helles. I don’t care about style guidelines, just taste. What are you thought about using whole leaf American hops like Mosaic, Cascade, or Citra?

If you care for taste, you won't even approximate a Munich Helles taste using any of those hops.
And if you don't care for the style, why to call your brew a foreign name that belongs to a traditional style which is pretty strictly defined?
Just brew a perfect New-Age-Hops Premium American Lager (which your planned beer definitely is in regard of the style) instead of an out-of-style bastardised "Helles".

 

[Djangotet]

If you care for taste, you won't even approximate a Munich Helles taste using any of those hops.
And if you don't care for the style, why to call your brew a foreign name that belongs to a traditional style which is pretty strictly defined?
Just brew a perfect New-Age-Hops Premium American Lager (which your planned beer definitely is in regard of the style) instead of an out-of-style bastardised "Helles".

Yeah I agree, Helles was just a starting point but I’m thinking of doing something different with the hops on top of the Helles grist bones. I just wasn’t sure if it would taste good if I were to switch out the hops, but as others were saying, if it’s a malty lager American hops would overwhelm.

 

[Miraculix]

I'd say, try to master a traditional helles first. This is already a huge task as this beer is hard to brew. Once you've managed that, go astray and see how you can tweak it more into the direction that suits your own taste the best way possible.

 

[Protos]

I can imagine a hint of American hop flavour complement a helles well

Blasphemy!
You should hardly detect even a German hop flavour in a true Helles... and you're ready to embrace American!
Please don't be so lenient (at least, publicly) regarding our coveted Continental Lagers - or else they gonna flood them with all the fruits of the jungle!

 

[Protos]

Yeah I agree, Helles was just a starting point but I’m thinking of doing something different with the hops on top of the Helles grist bones. I just wasn’t sure if it would taste good if I were to switch out the hops, but as others were saying, if it’s a malty lager American hops would overwhelm.

I think you'll have a very good beer.
Helles is 100% Pilsner Malt with very little hops and essentially no hop aroma.
When you employ 100% Pilsner Malt, a bit more hops and a moderate New World hop aroma, you're getting a perfect American Premium! It will taste great for sure, if brewed right.

 

[Miraculix]

I think you'll have a very good beer.
Helles is 100% Pilsner Malt with very little hops and essentially no hop aroma.
When you employ 100% Pilsner Malt, a bit more hops and a moderate New World hop aroma, you're getting a perfect American Premium! It will taste great for sure, if brewed right.

I taste hops in Augustiner and in Spaten. Not IPA level hop bomb, but it is there. 60 minute additions do provide hop flavour!

 

[Protos]

I'm far from stating that Helles is totally hop-less. I mean it's the least hoppy style among the traditional Lagers.
I agree, the bittering hop matters flavourvise much more than the common wisdom of brewing forums says.