FYI : concord kettles are not 18/8 stainless

[cantrell00]

Any facts to back this up?



This thread is about 'cheap Chinese' stainless as in the fake stainless Concord is trying to push. What makes 304 is the elements and %'s that it's made with. 304 stainless is 304 stainless if it's made in the US, China or Mars. 'Cheap Chinese' SS is cheap because they add less Nickel and Chromium and jack the Manganese up to fool people.



I'd highly highly contest this. Stainless steel naturally passivates when it's cleaned and exposed to Oxygen. There is no need to passivate at home or factory unless welding, heat treating, etc has been performed.




And that they lie about material...

If you're here to convince people that 201 and 304 can be used interchangeably then you're fighting a major uphill battle. 304 has twice the Nickel as 201, this is a fact. 304 has superior corrosion resistance; this is a fact. 201 has a higher tendency for pitting; this is a fact.

If you want to offer a kettle at an economy price using 201 then I'm sure there's a market but 201 is not the same as 304.

You could have saved yourself an abundance of typing by simply saying, "I paid a mint for my Blichmann kettles & they are superior BY GOD!" ..

Relax dude. We get it. Concord is a bunch of heathens & use less than desirable amounts of nickel.

Just move on. Jesus.

 

[Sconnie12]

You could have saved yourself an abundance of typing by simply saying, "I paid a mint for my Blichmann kettles & they are superior BY GOD!" ..

Relax dude. We get it. Concord is a bunch of heathens & use less than desirable amounts of nickel.

Just move on. Jesus.

Ummm I don't own Blichmann eq

You're missing the point. Concord lies and deceives consumers. CO Brewing, Ruby Street and others use Concord pots. They probably don't know they are selling fake 300 series eq. This negatively effects the whole community. But sure let's just move on and let them keep at it!

 

[augiedoggy]

Ummm I don't own Blichmann eq

You're missing the point. Concord lies and deceives consumers. CO Brewing, Ruby Street and others use Concord pots. They probably don't know they are selling fake 300 series eq. This negatively effects the whole community. But sure let's just move on and let them keep at it!

I see the point your trying to make, And yeah Thats a valid point.

But what exactly doe the stainless composition do that is negatively effecting the whole community?

I think that Blichmann over charges the community by a LOT and to me that has more of a negative effect on the home brewers than something that makes no difference in the application its being used for..

Case in point... lets look at the "therminator" it retails for $250 but the same chiller with the same materials,dimensions and construction, without the blichmann name on it sells for $84 from someone like duda energy ...
The fact that they charge 250% more Seems like a bigger impact to the homebrewer to me but due to mainly marketing they do it and most of the people who buy them are unaware of the fact that they are overpaying so much... When its brought up people get defensive about just like people do here...

The concord may not have true 304 stainless composition but I havent seen any indication that it matters and the bottom line is people are saving quite a bit of money with them. Now when you look at the therminator of even a blichmann kettle there is also no evidence one performs any better or has any practical advantage, but people have to spend much more for that? So same outcome, one doesnt do the job any better or worse than the other... yet we criticize the lower cost option because they didnt use commercial brewery strength stainless for home brewery use...

The only time I could see this being an issue is if they are used in an actual brewery with caustic cleaners and so far Ive seen no complaints there either..

 

[augiedoggy]

As a manufacturer of stainless steel brewing vessels, I think I can add some insight here.


Concord pots are cheap because the factory doesn't have high standards. I met the factory manager at a trade show back when we were first getting started. We considered working with them, but ultimately chose a different supplier for various reasons. I'm glad we did.

I've also met the manufacturers for Bayou Classic and SS Brewtech. Both of these factories have high quality standards, as I imagine the manufacturer of Bru-Gear does as well. I would be happy to have our vessels manufactured at any of those factories. They are all high quality companies. (And believe me, they are not made by the same manufacturer under different brands.) They are different locations with whole different production quantities and processes.

We ultimately settled on our current supplier because they wanted to compete with these other factories, and they gave us a great deal while maintaining high quality control standards.

To sum it up, how often do people complain about Bayou Classic pots developing rust? Their pots are made with type 410. (I know because I asked the manufacturer why their pots are magnetic.) 410 has the least corrosion resistance among the types listed above, and if it made that big of a difference, you would be hearing complaints about it all the time. But the manufacturer does a good job with quality control, so issues are rare.

Very informative post but Im confused about a couple things...
You stated first that your the manufacturer and then talk about other manufacturers and using them as suppliers? So are YOU actually the manufacturer or are they manufactured by someone else to your specs? Because they are not the same thing as much as so many want to believe it. I believe this fact alone causes more confusion than anything here.

I have 3 bayou classic kettles myself and I cannot get any type of magnetic attraction off of them at all yet they do work for induction from what others tell me... I have other stuff that is made of 410 steel and that is magnetic... I know the machining method matters to a point but...
And in anycase, and to Sconnies point, if they arent 304 they shouldnt be advertising them as such which they do, big deal or not.

 

[augiedoggy]

Any facts to back this up? ....

I did a lot of reading and research on this myself a couple months ago and I can second that there are a LOT or facts that back this up... The fact that your questioning it honestly implys you may not have done enough research yourself.

If you want to offer a kettle at an economy price using 201 then I'm sure there's a market but 201 is not the same as 304.

It is when it comes to homebrewing applications! When it comes down to actual use,function and durability, the 304 term is more hype and marketing here than anything when it comes to home brewing.

 

[Sconnie12]

I see the point your trying to make, And yeah Thats a valid point.

But what exactly does the stainless composition do that is negatively effecting the whole community?

I say this because a ton of people have Concord pots (or CO Brewing, Ruby, etc) and I'd say 99.9% of them believe they are getting 304SS. It hurts companies like SS, Spike and Blichmann that are actually innovating new products. It undercuts them by advertising a product that is 'the same' at a much lower price but when in fact it's not on the same level at all.

 

[Cyclman]

true 304 stainless composition

It either is, as claimed, or it's fraud.

I am baffled by the arguments, I would NEVER buy from a company that made fraudulent claims about their products.

Now, if you honestly state it's cheaper material that's just as good, I have NO issue with that.

Once a cheat, always a cheat, and why would I support that with my hard earned $$$?

 

[augiedoggy]

It undercuts them by advertising a product that is 'the same' at a much lower price but when in fact it's not on the same level at all.

Ok theres two sides of this argument though.. What does the metal composition do to not make it perform on the same level?
What doesn't it do as well and how is does it not live up to the "Same" standards when the standards your talking about have no bearing on its use or durability when used for what its sold for?

I'm willing to bet 99% of the home brewers your talking about could give to ****s about metallurgy all they want is a kettle that wont rust, is durable (201 stainless is up to 30% stronger than 304) and wont have any negative side effects health or otherwise .. They would still buy these kettles as long as they are cheaper and do the job just as well.

As already discussed 304 and 316 would have the advantage in a commercial environment where caustic cleaners are used.
Look at all the people still using aluminum!

Its a kettle people not a Gold watch. You argue its inferior but yet have no basis for how, other than the grade of stainless doesn't meet some exact standard not even necessary for its use.

I dont disagree that you have a point that they misadvertised its composition but if it doesnt matter then why do you still keep claiming its so inferior? I ask for some basis of this point and you just keep going back to your other valid non related argument.

There was a guy here a while back (Hes still a vendor here) who argued his supplied 316 pt100 stainless temp probes were superior to the 304 stainless probes others like auber sells.. He implied over and over that it really made some kind of difference in the homebrewing environment yet every time I asked him how he just got frustrated and repeated his statement...
Just because something looks better on paper or for marketing doesnt mean its really worth it in reality.

 

[augiedoggy]

It either is, as claimed, or it's fraud.

I am baffled by the arguments, I would NEVER buy from a company that made fraudulent claims about their products.

Do you really believe you dont already do that everyday?

I'm willing to bet I can point a out a lot of frauds you own if I seen them...

Its pretty common and its all about perception... Lets look a Chevy Aveo or a spark... they arent made by chevy at all.... just a rebranded deawoo made in korea... Im pretty sure the new malibu they are bragging about now might be made by kia like many of thier other models...

Heres an interesting list about bage engineering and rebranded automobiles..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_badge-engineered_vehicles

Or how about a vizo tv (its really an LG) or a phillips or magnovox tv (Made by samsung)

Or my favorite is the made in America claim on things that are 98% foreign with some final assembly done here..

And I see you own a cyce of some kind? please dont tell me you have owned a harley made in the last 30 years?

Its all just different forms of marketing deception...

 

[Cyclman]

Fraud: wrongful or criminal action causing someone to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage, intended to result in financial or personal gain.

Using a material different than claimed is fraud.

Badge engineering a vehicle, TV, or claiming Made in USA is not fraud, as as each is done within US law. It may be deception / misleading / marketing, but there's a huge difference between marketing and fraud...one makes you liable, the other doesn't. There is a line here, as courts have determined in many lawsuits.

 

[Sconnie12]

I'm willing to bet 99% of the home brewers your talking about could give to ****s about metallurgy all they want is a kettle that wont rust, is durable (201 stainless is up to 30% stronger than 304) and wont have any negative side effects health or otherwise .. They would still buy these kettles as long as they are cheaper and do the job just as well.

I dont disagree that you have a point that they misadvertised its composition but if it doesnt matter then why do you still keep claiming its so inferior? I ask for some basis of this point and you just keep going back to your other valid non related argument.

I'm not trying to argue but I don't think you're listing to me. There is a large difference between 201 and 304. 201 has a higher tendency to pit. I don't need to tell you why pitting would not be good on the cold (fermentation) side of brewing. 201 (like the Champan eq) or the Concord crap SS will be more prone to rusting. I have personal experience with my brand new Concord kettle rusting (see attached). There are also images (see attached) of Chapman eq rusting.

The issue comes when the lower grades of SS are welded. That's why you see the bottom ring rusting. That's where the bottom stamped piece and rolled barrel are welded together. Welding (especially when not done correctly) can make the stainless lose all 'stainless' properties. This is more of an issue on the lower grades.

Now if you want to defend Concord or say 201 is just as good then I'm out because I've spoken my piece.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Misrepresentation of Chinese products is quite common, often the vendors know very little and are just selling and making a small cut.

Often the vendor is clueless, and this is typically not intentionally done to mislead a buyer.

FWIW, I still think the Concord kettles are a great value, regardless of the type of stainless they may or may not be.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm not trying to argue but I don't think you're listing to me. There is a large difference between 201 and 304. 201 has a higher tendency to pit. I don't need to tell you why pitting would not be good on the cold (fermentation) side of brewing. 201 (like the Champan eq) or the Concord crap SS will be more prone to rusting. I have personal experience with my brand new Concord kettle rusting (see attached). There are also images (see attached) of Chapman eq rusting.

The issue comes when the lower grades of SS are welded. That's why you see the bottom ring rusting. That's where the bottom stamped piece and rolled barrel are welded together. Welding (especially when not done correctly) can make the stainless lose all 'stainless' properties. This is more of an issue on the lower grades.

Now if you want to defend Concord or say 201 is just as good then I'm out because I've spoken my piece.

In your pictures you will notice the rust is in a line... that is from some sort of contamination during the manufacturing process... it looks like a machining or sanding tool had a piece of contamination in it and embeded it in the steel in the direction of its travel. It could also be from the wrong type of welding rod being used or improper gas mixture when welded I believe but im not sure which way it was made. If the rust was forming just because it was 201 it would be randomly all over the kettle.

The same is true for the second picture only thats a single piece of contamination (you can actually see the ding in the stainless where something steel may have hit it hard and impacted it with ferrous metal.).. I have seen pics of that on larger stout brewery tanks. its not the stainless itself but something embedded in it. Japanese cars had this problem really bad in the late 70s and 80s... Your correct in assuming this boils down to quality control but these results are not typical.

I have a concord made kettle too and have not had any rusting at all and neither do most people who own them... I would venture to say you have a defective one that somehow got contamination in it during manufacturing.
If you google rust in kettle you will even find a similar picture of a blichmann kettle where this happened.

201 pits when exposed to strong caustic acids... stansan and pbw are not strong enough to do any or this pitting. Most stainless pots and pan sets spatulas, spoons and the like are made of 201

 

[augiedoggy]

Fraud: wrongful or criminal action causing someone to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage, intended to result in financial or personal gain.

Using a material different than claimed is fraud.

Badge engineering a vehicle, TV, or claiming Made in USA is not fraud, as as each is done within US law. It may be deception / misleading / marketing, but there's a huge difference between marketing and fraud...one makes you liable, the other doesn't. There is a line here, as courts have determined in many lawsuits.

I see your point but Deception is fraud.... whether its done legally or not. When you buy a toaster that says made in the USA on it and pay more for that toaster than most because of that. You would not think its just because someone was hired in the states to attach an American 120v power cord to a Chinese toaster and then package it in the states allowing it to be "Made in the usa"...

 

[ChapmanEquipment]

Hold up. Why are we even talking about 201? I didn't look at this carefully before, but the chemical composition in the original post is not even close to 201.

C = Concord
201 = 201 stainless
301 = 301 stainless
below are the percentages of the concord based on what it's supposed to be

Concord ----- 201 ------- 301
FE --- 73
NI - 1.1 --- 3.5/5.5 --- 6.0/8.0
MN - 10 -----5.5/7.5 -- 2
CR - 13 ----- 16/18 ----16/18

As far as I can tell, that's grade J4. See here.

Concord ----- J4

NI - 1.1 ---- 0.8/1.2
MN - 10 ----- 8.5/10.0
CR - 13 ----- 15/16

"It should be noted that these grades, such
as J1 and J4, are proprietary alloys – they
are company specific and not covered by
international codes and specifications, unlike
the traditional 200-series grades such as grade
201. So their composition is at the discretion
of the manufacturer and there are now many
small producers of grades such as these in
China"

Source

 

[wilserbrewer]

Wow, this thread just mad a sharp turn lol.

I assume J4 is better than 201 and 304 lol.

 

[daveMN]

Wow, this thread just mad a sharp turn lol.

I assume J4 is better than 201 and 304 lol.

But is it better than aluminum?
This is a fun thread to follow. I bought my kettle on Craigslist and the stainless grade was last on my list. I was just glad it had 2 handles.

 

[wilserbrewer]

But is it better than aluminum? ............I was just glad it had 2 handles.

2 handles funny! Absolutely better than aluminum.

Nothing like actual field testing vs debating and beating the grade of SS to death.

I'm pretty sure if someone posted a survey on Concord kettles and buyer satisfaction the majority would be highly satisfied. I have been reading these forums a long time and have heard very few complaints on the Concords. As Augie said above, quite often rust spots are the result of tooling contamination, possible with any grade stainless at any price point. I have read issues of rust spots with high dollar kettles as well as Chinese crap. Typically a buff with BKF solves the issue.

Only God does perfect work.

 

[ChapmanEquipment]

Very informative post but Im confused about a couple things...
You stated first that your the manufacturer and then talk about other manufacturers and using them as suppliers? So are YOU actually the manufacturer or are they manufactured by someone else to your specs? Because they are not the same thing as much as so many want to believe it. I believe this fact alone causes more confusion than anything here.

Sorry, we aren't manufacturers. We contract a factory to produce them for us. The reason I say we are manufacturers is because we design the products with the factory, we go over the manufacturing process with them, and we handle quality control in person. I'm personally going to be at the factory several times next month while our equipment is being produced. So saying suppliers or designers alone wouldn't cut it, but I can't think of a better way than just saying we are manufacturers. I should probably just say we work with the factory in the future.

I have 3 bayou classic kettles myself and I cannot get any type of magnetic attraction off of them at all yet they do work for induction from what others tell me... I have other stuff that is made of 410 steel and that is magnetic... I know the machining method matters to a point but...
And in anycase, and to Sconnies point, if they arent 304 they shouldnt be advertising them as such which they do, big deal or not.

The guy I talked to actually said 410 and sometimes 201. I didn't ask specifics. I was assuming their pots were all 410 because the consensus is that they are induction compatible. I can't actually say for certain what they are currently being made with, but I know it's not 300 series.

 

[augiedoggy]

Sorry, we aren't manufacturers. We contract a factory to produce them for us. The reason I say we are manufacturers is because we design the products with the factory, we go over the manufacturing process with them, and we handle quality control in person. I'm personally going to be at the factory several times next month while our equipment is being produced. So saying suppliers or designers alone wouldn't cut it, but I can't think of a better way than just saying we are manufacturers. I should probably just say we work with the factory in the future.



The guy I talked to actually said 410 and sometimes 201. I didn't ask specifics. I was assuming their pots were all 410 because the consensus is that they are induction compatible. I can't actually say for certain what they are currently being made with, but I know it's not 300 series.

Thanks for clarifying.. I am not implying there anything wrong with that, thats the way most companies do it now days since it just makes sense in todays economy. I just like to clear up the confusion.. especially if something happens down the road like the manufacturer trying to pull a fast one by cheapening the product without your knowledge which is extremely common of overseas goods.

SS brewtech does the same thing I believe with manufacturers in china although they must have some deal or affiliation with "Bru Gear" to be selling their conical design with upgrades.. who knows they could be owned by the same people for all we know... Plus I know its almost impossible to prevent a chinese manufacture from taking a design they were contracted to produce and not sell it to someone else or manufacturer knock offs themselves.

As far as the Bayou kettles I completely agree they are not 304 or 316... I just know they are not magnetic, work with induction and have a different color to them than other stainless kettles I have like the "Ballington" kettle I have thats supposedly made by the concord people.
They work fine though and I have seen zero signs of any rust despite their low cost and since I use electric they dont need to be thick.

 

[augiedoggy]

Wow, this thread just mad a sharp turn lol.

I assume J4 is better than 201 and 304 lol.

http://www.j4stainless.com/ it seems to perform on par with 300 grade stainless the breakdown in this link states that J4 is only slightly less corrosion resistant to pitting than 304 and superior in this aspect to 201 and it held out much longer to stress corrosion cracking than 304 and its 50% stronger so even though the concord kettles are only 1 mm thick they are much stronger than a comparable thickness 304 kettle...(compromising in other areas im sure)...Again not that it matters much for our application.

http://www.j4stainless.com/why.html

I wasnt thrilled to learn that J4 was mainly from India as I've heard some scary things about the metals coming from there... These kettles could have come from an old recycled oil tanker or nuclear sub for all we know... I read that they were caught making radioactive metals a few times too... still it would be silly to stereotype all metals from the worlds largest recycler based of a few bad apples right? I had read in an article that Even the US government helped form a dummy corp to send its scrap ships there to be broken up by barefoot workers and hazardous chemicals dumped into the sea without any liability... I dont know how true that is but they are the worlds largest ship wrecking yard. I did hear they recently gave the workers shoes and hardhats due to the public outcry but still use children for the tight space work and wire separation.