Fermentation CO2 for purging serving keg

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Brewer Mike

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So, using CO2 from fermenter to force Starsan from serving keg.

My question is, will the pressure involved suppress ester production enough to affect my IPA? Does anyone know how much pressure it takes to force the Starsan out of the keg?
 
I'm not sure .5 psi would do it but for sure 1 psi is enough to rack from keg to keg through a few feet of beer line. I've done that enough times. Same thing with Star San purges, I only use 1 psi to keep the CO2 utilization minimal.

[edit] I use fermentation gases to purge pairs of daisy chained kegs with the end of the daisy chain submerged just an inch deep in a bubbler bottle, hoping the minimal back pressure won't modify the yeast behavior. I have not tried purging with Star San filled kegs yet because I'm not confident the daisy chained kegs would cooperate...

Cheers!
 
Same thing with Star San purges, I only use 1 psi to keep the CO2 utilization minimal...
So how long does it take to push the starsan out at 1 psi? I've heard folks say it takes a couple of hours with fermentation gas. The comparison might give you a rough idea of the back pressure on the FV. Can't imagine that it's very high.
 
I'm going to say 10 minutes, tops.
And it's gravity-assisted with the sending keg on a bench and receiving keg on the floor...

Cheers!
 
No, the pressure doesn't go negative, it stays positive due to the scant 1 psi I keep on the fermentor...

Cheers!

My bad... I didn't read your previous comment carefully enough.

My comment was from me thinking you were using fermentation co2 to push starsan from one keg to another.
 
So how long does it take to push the starsan out at 1 psi? I've heard folks say it takes a couple of hours with fermentation gas. The comparison might give you a rough idea of the back pressure on the FV. Can't imagine that it's very high.
With fermentation CO2, it's more about the rate of CO2 production (fermentation rate) than the pressure, that determines the time required to push all the liquid out of a keg.

Brew on :mug:
 
[...]
My comment was from me thinking you were using fermentation co2 to push starsan from one keg to another.

I've had the suspicion it won't work which has kept me from trying it, but one of these fermentations I shall screw up the courage to try purging a pair of daisy-chained kegs filled with Star San and see what happens :)

Cheers!
 
There's really no need to fill a keg with StarSan and push it out with fermentation CO2, just run the fermenter through the keg to a jug, and for 5gal batch, it will successfully render the keg CO2 purged.
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There's really no need to fill a keg with StarSan and push it out with fermentation CO2, just run the fermenter through the keg to a jug, and for 5gal batch, it will successfully render the keg CO2 purged.
Yeah, I always thought the reason to fill with starsan was to elimate (or at least dramatically reduce the amount of) air in the keg so that pushing it out with bottled CO2 effectively purges the keg (as opposed to needing something like 18 purge cycles to get rid of all the O2 in a keg that starts out filled with air). I'm pretty sure that @doug293cz has proven this definitively. He's also done the math on daisy chained kegs, but I don't remember how that turned out.
 
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I've had the suspicion it won't work which has kept me from trying it, but one of these fermentations I shall screw up the courage to try purging a pair of daisy-chained kegs filled with Star San and see what happens :)

Cheers!

It definitely works... I do it all the time. My method is to let the fermentation get to a calculated gravity while using a blowoff tube. At that point I'll disconnect the blowoff and let a little pressure build in the fermentation keg for about 10 minutes. Then I'll set a keg filled with iodophor solution on the ground and an empty vessel above the filled keg. Hook everything up and voila! Usually takes about an hour for ferm co2 to push the iodophor solution to the empty vessel.
 
That does not sound like "a pair of daisy chained kegs filled with Star San".
I'm talking about a total of 10 gallons of Star San mix being pushed entirely out by fermentation gas pressure...

Cheers!
 
That does not sound like "a pair of daisy chained kegs filled with Star San".
I'm talking about a total of 10 gallons of Star San mix being pushed entirely out by fermentation gas pressure...

Cheers!
Why don't you think it will work? If your fermenter is leak free at a couple of PSI, that's all you need (as long as your keg lids don't need some minimum PSI to seal - in that case, your fermenter has to be leak free at higher pressure than the kegs need to seal.)

Brew on :mug:
 
That does not sound like "a pair of daisy chained kegs filled with Star San".
I'm talking about a total of 10 gallons of Star San mix being pushed entirely out by fermentation gas pressure...

Cheers!

Yeah I hear you. I only purge one keg at a time. After each keg is purged, I'll disconnect that one and hook up the keg that was just filled, following my method I mentioned above. One downside is that you do have to switch kegs out but since I work from home most days I can be around to babysit this. The upside is this requires a single keg of sanitizer solution.

I'd guess the "pair of daisy chained kegs filled with Starsan" would work maybe requiring a little bit more pressure in the fermenter to get things moving. If you ever try this let us know how it goes 😀
 
I'll disconnect the blowoff and let a little pressure build in the fermentation keg for about 10 minutes. Then I'll set a keg filled with iodophor solution on the ground and an empty vessel above the filled keg. Hook everything up and voila! Usually takes about an hour for ferm co2 to push the iodophor solution to the empty vessel.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but why do you push the solution uphill?

And can someone explain the advantage of pushing sanitizer with fermentation gas? I mean, I get that you'll use a helluva lot less bottled CO2 by pushing sanitizer out than you would to do 18 fill and vent cycles, but a mid-gravity five gallon ferment produces more than enough pure CO2 to purge an empty keg (or maybe two?).
 
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but why do you push the solution uphill?

And can someone explain the advantage of pushing sanitizer with fermentation gas? I mean, I get that you'll use a helluva lot less bottled CO2 by pushing sanitizer out than you would to do 18 fill and vent cycles, but a mid-gravity five gallon ferment produces more than enough pure CO2 to purge an empty keg (or maybe two?).

Pushing uphill should avoid starting a siphon. Not sure if a siphon is even a possibility with the closed system (sealed keg fermenter, sealed keg with sanitizer, empty keg or bucket with end of hose submerged in pushed sanitizer) but I'd like to avoid it.

The idea of pushing sanitizer is you can be more sure that whatever has displaced the sanitizer is CO2. As long as everything is sealed nicely then there won't be any O2 getting in. In addition, the remaining fermentation CO2 can be used for whatever else you want, continuing purge of emptied keg, spunding, purge another vessel, etc.

If you're just using fermentation CO2 to purge the empty keg you are most likely going to purge that vessel entirely... A mid-gravity 5 gallon ferment will NOT purge two 5 gallon kegs effectively, depending on how you define effectively (5ppb, 50 ppb, 500ppb, etc.) @doug293cz fantastic post has all the equations you need to calculate this. I think it's also important to note that the equations are worst case scenario and it's possible that the fermentation CO2 purge does a better job than calculated.

For me, depending on how I'm dry hopping and/or spunding, pushing sanitizer out is a must.

I think I've linked this here before but it's a spreadsheet I cobbled together using equations from @doug293cz post.

Keg Purge Final O2
 
The idea of pushing sanitizer is you can be more sure that whatever has displaced the sanitizer is CO2. As long as everything is sealed nicely then there won't be any O2 getting in. In addition, the remaining fermentation CO2 can be used for whatever else you want, continuing purge of emptied keg, spunding, purge another vessel, etc.
If everything is sealed nicely there won't be any O2 getting in whether the keg is filled with gas or liquid at the start. The only difference is the amount of air that's already there. The remaining CO2 can be used for whatever you want either way as long as you're thoughtful about the order you connect things.
A mid-gravity 5 gallon ferment will NOT purge two 5 gallon kegs effectively, depending on how you define effectively (5ppb, 50 ppb, 500ppb, etc.) @doug293cz fantastic post has all the equations you need to calculate this.
Yeah, but it definitely does one very effectively. And like you said, he always does worst case scenarios so two isn't really out of the question.
 
If everything is sealed nicely there won't be any O2 getting in whether the keg is filled with gas or liquid at the start. The only difference is the amount of air that's already there. The remaining CO2 can be used for whatever you want either way as long as you're thoughtful about the order you connect things.

Yeah, but it definitely does one very effectively. And like you said, he always does worst case scenarios so two isn't really out of the question.
I don't always do worst case, but sometimes it's the only way the problem is tractable. My Mash and Lauter Simulator is pretty darn accurate and doesn't look at worst case.

Brew on :mug:
 
I have been relying on @doug293cz's calculations to purge pairs of 5 gallon cornelius type kegs with the fermentation gases from 10 gallon batches since he published his conclusions. And as best as I can tell from the very long legs of my brews - I have neipas routinely stay bright for many months - it works.

But as an engineer I'm always looking for the next better way to do things, especially when there's a built-in confirmation of success. The one thing gas purging doesn't provide is any indication that it wasn't messed up somehow. Otoh, pushing all the sanitizer out of a pair of kegs would be hard to deny a successful purge.

So I've been wanting to give it a try, and my hold-up is simply that some connection between fermentors and kegs will not stand up. I have total faith in my kegs holding at virtually zero pressure - I've been depending on that all this time, after all - so it's not about the kegs, it's really about whether the carboy connections can hold up...

Cheers!
 
If everything is sealed nicely there won't be any O2 getting in whether the keg is filled with gas or liquid at the start. The only difference is the amount of air that's already there. The remaining CO2 can be used for whatever you want either way as long as you're thoughtful about the order you connect things.

Agreed. One thing to think about is there can be significantly much less fermentation CO2 available after a straight fermentation CO2 purge vs. pushing sanitizer. Really just depends on your situation whether this is even applicable.
 
Both methods work well. I have found it more convenient to sanitize my fermenter on brewday and push that sanitizer into the keg I will use for that beer. I then just dump the sanitizer. Both vessels are sanitized, the yeast goes in one and the other gets hooked up to the fermenter. Yes the keg starts with air inside, but the onslaught of CO2 to come from fermentation effectively purges it. This way, when it comes time to transfer the beer to the keg, it is just hook up and transfer. Both are at the same pressure after spunding and cold crashing and ready go.
 

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