Electric AND Gas?

[Punk Brewster]

I'm looking to make the next jump to increase volume while limiting batch times but haven't found anyone who has anything to say, good or bad, about my idea to use a hellfire burner converted to natural gas to heat a brew kettle with electric elements running simultaneously until boil is achieved. Once it's boiling, I would cut the gas and go strictly electric.
The hellfire has a good heatshield so I'm not worried about melting wires... is there something that I'm missing that makes this a bad idea that no one talks about or is google AI hamstringing me by assuming and insisting that I meant to type electric vs gas?

 

[Sam_92]

I don't know what a hellfire is but have you considered putting your electric kettle on the range? I have done that a couple times and my worthless glasstop stove suddenly becomes a superstar.

 

[Punk Brewster]

I don't know what a hellfire is but have you considered putting your electric kettle on the range? I have done that a couple times and my worthless glasstop stove suddenly becomes a superstar.

Blichman hellfire burner.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/b...ccr4JbehpZPXVPJfbWbsvUA98tc7scNwaAsU1EALw_wcB140,000 btu on propane and something like 80% of that on natural gas.

Stove's not an option as I'm dedicating most of my house's 100 amp power supply to the brew room as is... if I add 11,000 watts of heat to the brew kettle to supplement the gas burner.

 

[Kickass]

how much time are you trying to save? From what I heard the hellfire is a pretty quick heater. What volumes are you working with?

And, I guess to answer your question, I don’t see why it wouldn’t work.

 

[Lalo_uy]

Be aware that that 30% of gas heat goes out to the sides of the kettle, just where your electric wires runs.
Keep them cool.

 

[Bobby_M]

What batch size and what kind of system and brewing process?

 

[Golddiggie]

IME, getting up to a boil, with a good size electric element, won't take any longer than using gas. I have a single 5500W element in my BK (same in the HLT) and once the final volume is in the BK, it gets to boil at least as fast as when I was using propane burners (if not faster).

Are you on 220/240v or are you trying to use 120v for the electric elements?

 

[mabrungard]

I found that a full 5500 watts going into 6 to 7 gallons of warm wort results in a pretty short time to boil. Adding another heat source wasn’t necessary for me and I appreciate that virtually all that electrical energy goes into my wort as heat. Having something like 700 to 1000 watts electric power per gallon of wort will result in quick time to boil, but is huge overkill to maintain the boil. Having a pulse-width controller is imperative in my experience.

 

[LarMoeCur]

The only way, I can see any benefit in doing this is if your running a smaller 120v element. Where your are limited on BTU output. If your running a 240v 5500w element heating, time to boil is pretty darn fast especially if you start heating during the sparge. I start walking my temperature up as soon as the element is covered in wort. So, by the time my sparge ends, I'm just a minute or two away from boiling.

Now if your thinking of going way up in batch size. Like more than 20 gallons, I'd spend the money on upgrading to a 50a duel element panel. I can easily boil 20 gallons with just a single 5500w element. I seem to remember reading that 30 gallons was the cut off for a single 5500w element. Not that it wouldn't boil it would take like an hour and 40 minutes to get to boil temps. There's a mathematical equation to calculate this but I'm way to lazy to find it.

I'm with Lalo_uy on the heat up the sides of the kettle point. I have my element lower in the kettle to be able to do 5 gallon batches if I need too. A burner would for sure cast some heat on the element housing. You would have to build a heat shield/deflector to be safe.

 

[Bobby_M]

OP is already talking about ADDING the burner to 11KW of elements. That's why I just stopped and asked about the batch size and process right there. I can't imagine the need to exceed 11kw for any batch up to a full BBL. Additional time savings can be had by using a time delay controller to get water heated before you even enter the space. Making a temporary assumption that you're fly sparging, you can fire the boil kettle elements as soon as they are covered and that means you're boiling by the time you have your volumes.

The cons to using gas is that it demands adequate ventilation and that's a drag compared the comfort of all electric.

 

[Punk Brewster]

The only way, I can see any benefit in doing this is if your running a smaller 120v element. Where your are limited on BTU output. If your running a 240v 5500w element heating, time to boil is pretty darn fast especially if you start heating during the sparge. I start walking my temperature up as soon as the element is covered in wort. So, by the time my sparge ends, I'm just a minute or two away from boiling.

Now if your thinking of going way up in batch size. Like more than 20 gallons, I'd spend the money on upgrading to a 50a duel element panel. I can easily boil 20 gallons with just a single 5500w element. I seem to remember reading that 30 gallons was the cut off for a single 5500w element. Not that it wouldn't boil it would take like an hour and 40 minutes to get to boil temps. There's a mathematical equation to calculate this but I'm way to lazy to find it.

I'm with Lalo_uy on the heat up the sides of the kettle point. I have my element lower in the kettle to be able to do 5 gallon batches if I need too. A burner would for sure cast some heat on the element housing. You would have to build a heat shield/deflector to be safe.

I'm boiling 28 gallons now and it takes 1.5+ hours. I'm going up to 45 so 2 elements for 11KW was where I was headed for sure. I already have a dual element panel and a single element panel that I use to preheat the water up to 195° depending on whether I'm brewing or cleaning. The whole system is being taken over by a PLC, so I can flip power from one task to the other automatically, which I'll need during the transfer and fly sparging.. when I can only power 3 of the 5 elements involved in these functions due to limited power supply. I also already have the hellfire burner which has a great heat shield and a good ventilation setup, so I'm figuring.. If I'm ordering a new brew pot and am customizing the port locations anyway, why not place them strategically so that I can knock some time off getting to boil with the burner.

 

[Golddiggie]

IMO, you have a serious risk of melting your electric element power cord by adding the gas burner to the mix. You'll need to add additional shielding under the element connection to have any hope to NOT destroy it.

I'd address the power feed issue to get the system properly powered. I had a dedicated breaker added when I went full electric (with a proper panel) here. Went with a double batch capable setup, so I can feed both the HLT and BK elements at the same time. If I was to go to a 1bbl setup here (current BK is 20 gallon) I could feed both of the elements in either the BK or HLT at one time (not both kettles) with my current feed. I do have another 240 (30amp) outlet in the same area I COULD take a feed from, if I had a way to get it to the element(s).

Next place I get into will have a dedicated brewing area, with power to go to at least a 1bbl system without issue.

If you're brewing inside, you need to be hyper aware of ventilation for the gas use. Both for when the burner is going and when it's not. Gas leaks are no joke.

 

[Punk Brewster]

IMO, you have a serious risk of melting your electric element power cord by adding the gas burner to the mix. You'll need to add additional shielding under the element connection to have any hope to NOT destroy it.

I'd address the power feed issue to get the system properly powered. I had a dedicated breaker added when I went full electric (with a proper panel) here. Went with a double batch capable setup, so I can feed both the HLT and BK elements at the same time. If I was to go to a 1bbl setup here (current BK is 20 gallon) I could feed both of the elements in either the BK or HLT at one time (not both kettles) with my current feed. I do have another 240 (30amp) outlet in the same area I COULD take a feed from, if I had a way to get it to the element(s).

Next place I get into will have a dedicated brewing area, with power to go to at least a 1bbl system without issue.

If you're brewing inside, you need to be hyper aware of ventilation for the gas use. Both for when the burner is going and when it's not. Gas leaks are no joke.

The current heat shield works great, I can hold my hand by the shielded side of the kettle with no issue.
I dropped a 60A 240V subpanel in my brew room...my whole house is only 100A.
I hear you on the gas hazard, I have natural gas, CO, CO2 and smoke detectors strategically placed as well as a shutoff for the gas where the hard piping ends.
There is an old 9" chimney flu that I draw air out of the room with a 2000CFM exhaust fan.

 

[Golddiggie]

One of the things I'll be looking at when I'm checking out a new place to move to is the service coming into the place. Not to mention how full the current panel is. I'm hoping there's enough power going to the place, but I'm expecting to have to either add another feed (from the poles) or increase the service coming into the place pretty soon after moving in. Especially if I get more of the machinery I want to get for my hobbies.

 

[superiorsat]

Hmm. Hellfire basically has no heat shield. Just sheet metal that the legs bolt on to which is only like an inch above the burner. The heat that goes up above the flame has no shield. Occasionally I use it on my 50 gallon kettle which I've yet to weld on ports to go electric so I shield the bulk head connected fittings that it came with. I use just some aluminum flashing you can see is burnt pretty good. The hellfire is way smaller than the kettle and you have to measure to try and center it since you can't see it under the kettle. My 100 gallon kettles can go from ground water temp to boil in about an hour 45ish with 2 5500 watt elements ( but that is water and 100% output), although I have a spare 2 inch tri-clamp to add a 3rd if I decided later that I need to speed things up. I also have timers so I can set it and forget it, show up and strike water is ready to go. Heating during sparge after your elements are covered should be as fast as anything. 100% power output is likely to scorch high gravity wort even with ULWD elements ( I've done it ONCE ) as @mabrungard eluded to or at least that is what I thought about the comment about pulse-width controllers.

 

[chilitom]

I went with a hybrid propane/electric setup for my HERMS rig, with 3 X 10 gallon kettles, for a couple of reasons:
1) it took me a long time to build the system, but once I had the frame and mounted 3 banjo-type burners I could keep brewing while slowly building out the rest of the system
2) I can use propane to rapidly heat the mash and sparge water simultaneously and then switch to electric just to maintain the temperature in the HLT during HERMS recirculation. This way, I could stay with 120 V. for the heater element, making the electricals a lot easier and cheaper.

I made a heat shield from aluminum flashing to protect the external box for the electrical element. It works very well. The box gets warm but is never anywhere close to being too hot to touch.

I realize this is different from what the OP is proposing, but is an example of a hybrid system that's fairly simple to implement. Works well for me anyway.

 

[khannon]

I went with a hybrid propane/electric setup for my HERMS rig, with 3 X 10 gallon kettles, for a couple of reasons:
1) it took me a long time to build the system, but once I had the frame and mounted 3 banjo-type burners I could keep brewing while slowly building out the rest of the system
2) I can use propane to rapidly heat the mash and sparge water simultaneously and then switch to electric just to maintain the temperature in the HLT during HERMS recirculation. This way, I could stay with 120 V. for the heater element, making the electricals a lot easier and cheaper.

I made a heat shield from aluminum flashing to protect the external box for the electrical element. It works very well. The box gets warm but is never anywhere close to being too hot to touch.

I realize this is different from what the OP is proposing, but is an example of a hybrid system that's fairly simple to implement. Works well for me anyway.

Just an FYI, the Hellfire burner will melt aluminum heat shields really quickly(ask how I know..) I found that making a heat shield out of the stuff they use for 6" heat pipes is a little more work, but has not yet melted.

 

[superiorsat]

Just an FYI, the Hellfire burner will melt aluminum heat shields really quickly(ask how I know..) I found that making a heat shield out of the stuff they use for 6" heat pipes is a little more work, but has not yet melted.

I would agree. The only way I get away with it is the flame is probably over 6 inches away from the aluminum shield but it burnt the paint off and deposited the smoke from it on the side of the kettle.

 

[Punk Brewster]

My hellfire came with a stainless heat shield that gets crazy hot but is unfazed, aside from some discoloration. That wisp of teflon tape has been through half a dozen brews. The shield blocks off the front quarter of the kettle from side heat, probably increasing the blow by on the other 3/4s, but I'm cool with cool fittings...especially if I can throw in electric elements to make up for the losses and then some.

 

[superiorsat]

Cool! I've used mine maybe 3 times in the last 5 years on the 50 gallon pot for wet hop beers off my hop plants. That is a pretty nice upgrade as my older one doesn't have it. You still will need additional shielding for the back if you have electrical cords coming out the back as that burner is a beast.

Edit- Are you talking about putting an element by the front port on the kettle utilizing the 1 shield?

 

[Punk Brewster]

Cool! I've used mine maybe 3 times in the last 5 years on the 50 gallon pot for wet hop beers off my hop plants. That is a pretty nice upgrade as my older one doesn't have it. You still will need additional shielding for the back if you have electrical cords coming out the back as that burner is a beast.

Edit- Are you talking about putting an element by the front port on the kettle utilizing the 1 shield?

Yes, I want to cluster everything on the front. I'm thinking both the elements in the middle, one atop the other unless some one chimes in that that's a bad idea, with the thermometer above those in the middle (or maybe element, thermometer, element in the middle to space them out a little). Then a fill and drain port, one on either side of center, but still protected.

 

[superiorsat]

I don't know if one element on top of another is a bad idea or not. For me ideally I try to stager the elements as to spread the boil out across more of the pot. I do a 4 vessel system as I like to use a small 5 gallon pot for my herms coil so I can speed up temp changes for step mashing or mash out ( this frees up my normal HLT to be ready for second batch of the day) , but that single element in such a small pot will really throw violent boil if ramping at 100% and you are getting around 205ish farenheit which I only do when sparging to send the hottest wort possible to the boil kettle. Enough to boil up over the side and trip my gfci if I don't keep an eye on it. Thinking 2 stacked elements might have the same effect.

 

[NewJersey]

What are you guys doing with 50 and 100 gallon kettles?
Is this all commercial stuff?

 

[superiorsat]

Yeah, I should take possession of my building maybe late April or early May. My 100 gallon setup is at a buddies distillery and was in use for a while making small mash batches for a small 53 gallon still he was running. It now sits idle until I get my building as he bought a whole 250 gallon complete distillery from a guy that was upgrading while he is waiting for his 500 gallon one to be built. The 50 gallon pot just sits around unless I want to do a huge wet hop beer. Which I did 3 times this year. You need a big pot to do 90 ounces of wet hops. ( equals about 18 ounces dry in a 12 gallon batch)