dry yeast pitching rates

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twd000

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I was thinking of switching from liquid yeasts to dry yeast for the convenience and costs savings.

I pulled up the data sheet for Saflager 34/70 which I have used successfully on several lagers.

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/SafLager-W-3470.pdf

Here's what it says about pitching rate:
"PITCHING: 80 to 120 g/hl for fermentation at 12°C – 15°C (53.6-59°F). increase pitching for fermentation lower than 12°C (53°F), up to 200 to 300 g/hl at 9°C (48°F)"

80 grams per hectoliter is 15 grams in a 5 gallon batch, which is already more than a single 11.5g satchet. And that's the low end of the recommended range

120 g/hl = 2x 11.5g satchets

and if you go cold for a traditional lager fermentation (200-300 g/hl), you would need 3-5 satchets for a single 5-gallon batch!

At $6.50 per satchet, I'm not seeing the cost savings.

Are people actually pitching at these rates, or just tossing in one satchet per batch because "that's what came with the kit" ?
 
If I use dry yeast in a 5G batch, I'll use 1 packet if it's an ale at standard fermentation temps. Two packets if it's a lager at standard lager temps.
 
Yes, most home brewers are greatly under pitching their lager fermentations. For a commercial comparison, a typical 12P lager is pitched at around 18 million cells per ml, which for a 5.5 gallon batch, one needs about 312 billion cells. A dry pack of yeast contains about 70 billion cells, so about 4.5 packs of dry yeast are needed. If one pitches half that amount, typical for most ale fermentations, you'd still need more than 2 packs.

If you plan to use dry yeast often, spending the $90 on a 500g brick makes more sense.
 
bierhaus15 said:
Yes, most home brewers are greatly under pitching their lager fermentations. For a commercial comparison, a typical 12P lager is pitched at around 18 million cells per ml, which for a 5.5 gallon batch, one needs about 312 billion cells. A dry pack of yeast contains about 70 billion cells, so about 4.5 packs of dry yeast are needed. If one pitches half that amount, typical for most ale fermentations, you'd still need more than 2 packs.

If you plan to use dry yeast often, spending the $90 on a 500g brick makes more sense.
Click to expand...


I would love to buy a 500g brick but I understand that it degrades quickly after opening the package and exposing it to oxygen. I don't brew on the commercial scale, so I can't use that much at a time
 
Oxygen exposure to dry yeast is really not a terrible thing, it is more or less an issue when moisture and contaminates can get in there. If stored cold and dry in a sanitary/sealed container, dry yeast can be used successfully for upwards of year or more. Viability losses is also relatively low. Granted this is not ideal, but it is not uncommon. Worth considering if you brew often and cost is a concern.

That said, I am generally not a fan of dry yeast and much prefer liquid yeast pitched at appropriate amounts.
 
Based on a Fermentis presentation at the most recent AHA conference, I pitch 1 gram per liter of 34/70. That’s 2x packs in 5 gal @ $6.50 per pack.

Granted, it might not be a cost savings over liquid at that pitch rate but the convenience is still there: I still don’t make a starter, I can get it locally (I cannot get liquid local), I know it’s not DOA (like I’ve experienced one too many times with mail order liquid), and it has fermented in about 5 days (3 lagers with 34/70 since the increased pitch rate: 4, 6, and 5 day ferments).

Added bonus: 34/70 can be fermented warm. I’ve used 65* and 62*F with no off flavors in beer and no off smells during ferment. Just clean lagers.

I drain 50% of cooled wort into the fermenter, sprinkle two packs on top, cover, wait 10-15 min (clean something), then drain to fill the fermenter completely. Basta.

Pitching one pack in the past caused slow starts, sluggish fermentation, and slow completion. 10-14 daze was not uncommon. That sucked.

Based on the success I have experienced in my brewery, I have also used that pitch rate for S-189 at 62*F and S-04 at 64*F. Both finished in 4 daze.

I will continue using 1 gram per liter with all dry yeast.
 
bierhaus15 said:
Oxygen exposure to dry yeast is really not a terrible thing, it is more or less an issue when moisture and contaminates can get in there. If stored cold and dry in a sanitary/sealed container, dry yeast can be used successfully for upwards of year or more. Viability losses is also relatively low. Granted this is not ideal, but it is not uncommon. Worth considering if you brew often and cost is a concern.

That said, I am generally not a fan of dry yeast and much prefer liquid yeast pitched at appropriate amounts.
Click to expand...

the manufacturer thinks an opened package degrades pretty quickly
"Opened sachets must be sealed and stored at 4°C (39°F) and used within 7 days of opening."

Why is your preference for liquid yeast? Of course, there are more strains available in liquid form, but I'm always impressed at the highly quality of dry yeasts these days. Plus the likelihood that liquid yeast cultures have been mishandled prior to reaching my house. Dry yeasts seem much more robust since they have been preserved for multi-year storage
 
brewbama said:
Based on a Fermentis presentation at the most recent AHA conference, I pitch 1 gram per liter of 34/70. That’s 2x packs in 5 gal @ $6.50 per pack.

Granted, it might not be a cost savings over liquid at that pitch rate but the convenience is still there: I still don’t make a starter, I can get it locally (I cannot get liquid local), I know it’s not DOA (like I’ve experienced one too many times with mail order liquid), and it has fermented in about 5 days (3 lagers with 34/70 since the increased pitch rate: 4, 6, and 5 day ferments).

Added bonus: 34/70 can be fermented warm. I’ve used 65* and 62*F with no off flavors in beer and no off smells during ferment. Just clean lagers.

I drain 50% of cooled wort into the fermenter, sprinkle two packs on top, cover, wait 10-15 min (clean something), then drain to fill the fermenter completely. Basta.

Pitching one pack in the past caused slow starts, sluggish fermentation, and slow completion. 10-14 daze was not uncommon. That sucked.

Based on the success I have experienced in my brewery, I have also used that pitch rate for S-189 at 62*F and S-04 at 64*F. Both finished in 4 daze.

I will continue using 1 gram per liter with all dry yeast.
Click to expand...

yes I'm coming around to your way of thinking. My success with 34/70 has been warm (low 60's) and under 15 psi pressure (even now that I realize I was under-pitching). Made a delicious marzen and czech pilsner with it, and planning to continue, just at a higher pitch rate.
 
brewbama said:
Based on a Fermentis presentation at the most recent AHA conference, I pitch 1 gram per liter of 34/70. That’s 2x packs in 5 gal @ $6.50 per pack.

Granted, it might not be a cost savings over liquid at that pitch rate but the convenience is still there: I still don’t make a starter, I can get it locally (I cannot get liquid local), I know it’s not DOA (like I’ve experienced one too many times with mail order liquid), and it has fermented in about 5 days (3 lagers with 34/70 since the increased pitch rate: 4, 6, and 5 day ferments).

Added bonus: 34/70 can be fermented warm. I’ve used 65* and 62*F with no off flavors in beer and no off smells during ferment. Just clean lagers.

I drain 50% of cooled wort into the fermenter, sprinkle two packs on top, cover, wait 10-15 min (clean something), then drain to fill the fermenter completely. Basta.

Pitching one pack in the past caused slow starts, sluggish fermentation, and slow completion. 10-14 daze was not uncommon. That sucked.

Based on the success I have experienced in my brewery, I have also used that pitch rate for S-189 at 62*F and S-04 at 64*F. Both finished in 4 daze.

I will continue using 1 gram per liter with all dry yeast.
Click to expand...

I've also had a bad run with online liquid yeasts. Have had 3 or so DOA from Wyeast and Omega. Ordering in summer is tough to be fair. Liquid yeasts are a giant PITA but I feel much more like I'm actually brewing when I use them vs just opening a dry pack and dumping in. Also it's been my experience that dry yeasts are almost never stored properly in the LHBS.
 
Steveruch said:
Label peelers will throw dry yeast into an envelope and mail it for free. And they seem to have deals on yeast fairly regularly.
Click to expand...

Good deal! That’s the way it should be!

...but it’s $5.27. It’s worth a buck for me to help keep the local open.


572883A8-8D98-443F-AA56-1B2E825BF93A.png
 
Last edited:
brewbama said:
Good deal! That’s the way it should be!

...but it’s $5.27. It’s worth a buck for me to help keep the local open.


View attachment 653101
Click to expand...
If you have a local that you are happy with support it as much as possible. I wish I had one closer than a two hour drive each way.
$5.27 now, but they've had a couple of special deals in the last 2 or 3 months.
 
I've never made a lager and now it seems they could run a little expensive when taking into account pitch rate according to this info which is new to me. I've been living in the land of T-58, I guess.
I've been pitching two packs of ale yeast since my second or third batch.
 
I just (this morning) checked Brewer's Friend (
https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/) and Mr. Malty (
http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php) to see what they had to say about pitch rate. Brewer's Friend comes up with roughly twice the dry yeast recommended compared to Mr. Malty. Apparently there has been some recent discussion, because Mr. Malty mentions it. It starts with "(Recently there have been other numbers mentioned for cells/gram of dry yeast and folks have asked me why I believe there are 20 billion cells."

I think both of these sources are highly regarded by brewers in general. It's no wonder home brewers haven't reached a consensus.
 
Steveruch said:
If you have a local that you are happy with support it as much as possible. I wish I had one closer than a two hour drive each way.
$5.27 now, but they've had a couple of special deals in the last 2 or 3 months.
Click to expand...

I stand corrected. You said Diamond but I searched and found 34/70. You are correct: Diamond is $4.27.

I love Label Peeler’s shipping policy.

Cheers!

ncbrewer said:
I just (this morning) checked Brewer's Friend (
https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/) and Mr. Malty (
http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php) to see what they had to say about pitch rate. Brewer's Friend comes up with roughly twice the dry yeast recommended compared to Mr. Malty. Apparently there has been some recent discussion, because Mr. Malty mentions it. It starts with "(Recently there have been other numbers mentioned for cells/gram of dry yeast and folks have asked me why I believe there are 20 billion cells."

I think both of these sources are highly regarded by brewers in general. It's no wonder home brewers haven't reached a consensus.
Click to expand...

Brewer’s Friend has a pretty good article below the calculator.

“Dry Yeast - billions of cells per gram:

No one agrees on the number of yeast cells per gram in dry yeast!
This is made more confusing because each yeast strain has different size cells and clumping tendencies.

We put in a reasonable default of 10 billion cells per gram of dry yeast.

Kaiser located a study which reports the following data on dry yeast ranging from 8-18 billion cells per gram:

Yeast B cells/g
Safale K-97 14
Safale S-04 8
Safbrew T-58 18
Safbrew S-33 16
Saflager S-23 10
Saflager S-189 9

Adapted from: Van Den Berg, S., & Van Landschoot, A. (2003). Practical use of dried yeasts in the brewing industry. CEREVISIA, 28(3), 25-30 (Table 1).

Mr.Malty says that dry yeast contains 20 billion cells per gram. Unfortunately we could not find a reference to a study that supports that number.

From the manufacturers:
Fermentis: > 6B cells/gram for US-05 and S-04.
Danstar: > 5B cells/gram for Nottingham yeast.

These numbers sound conservative and do not match with the study referenced above. According to our pitching calculator, with dry yeast, using the mfg's number of 6B cells/g, to hit a pitch rate of 0.75 (M cells / ml / ° P) for a 5 gallon batch @1.050 would require 3x 11g packs!

Link to a researcher claiming 20B, but only has an n of 1.

Most dry yeast packs come in 5g or 11g amounts. With dry yeast, starters are typically not made because dry yeast is relatively cheap - just buy more packs to hit the target pitch rate.”
 
Last edited:
I'm cheap and always save yeast slurry, even with dry yeast. So with the first dry pack, I'll make a 3 gallon batch and then toss the slurry into a full size batch. After that I'll use 1/2 the jar of slurry in the next batch and quit after 5-6 generations but sometimes I'll go longer. IMO, a good healthy pitch of yeast really makes a better beer.
 
madscientist451 said:
I'm cheap and always save yeast slurry, even with dry yeast. So with the first dry pack, I'll make a 3 gallon batch and then toss the slurry into a full size batch. After that I'll use 1/2 the jar of slurry in the next batch and quit after 5-6 generations but sometimes I'll go longer. IMO, a good healthy pitch of yeast really makes a better beer.
Click to expand...

I agree about the health and vigor of repitched yeast. My problem is I don't use it soon enough before viability drops off. I can go 2-6 months before rebrewing the same style and that's just too long
 
No its not, I've used yeast that's been stored 6 months or more without any issues. Just mix up a quart of DME extract, toss it in a 1/2 gallon jug with the slurry and give it a few days to wake up.
 
Just another data point (or two):

Fermentis doesn’t offer a calculator I can find but they have a chart listing suggested pitch rates:

ALE YEASTS: 50-80 g/hl (0.06-0.10 oz/gal), 4-6 106 cells/ml. I use an average at 65 g/hl = 13.65 g per 21 liters (~5.5 gal) which is a bit more than one so I pitch two packs. I wouldn’t stress if I only had one ale pack.

LAGER YEASTS: 80-120 g/hl (0.10-0.16 oz/gal), 8-12 106 cells/ml. Again, I average at 100 g/hl = 21 g per 21 liters so I pitch two packs.

Danstar/Lallemand does have a calculator for specific strain, wort density, and qty.
 
Last edited:
brewbama said:
Just another data point (or two):

Fermentis doesn’t offer a calculator I can find but they have a chart listing suggested pitch rates:

ALE YEASTS: 50-80 g/hl (0.06-0.10 oz/gal), 4-6 106 cells/ml. I use an average at 65 g/hl = 13.65 g per 21 liters (~5.5 gal) which is a bit more than one so I pitch two packs. I wouldn’t stress if I only had one ale pack.

LAGER YEASTS: 80-120 g/hl (0.10-0.16 oz/gal), 8-12 106 cells/ml. Again, I average at 100 g/hl = 21 g per 21 liters so I pitch two packs.

Danstar/Lallemand does have a calculator for specific strain, wort density, and qty.
Click to expand...

that's an interesting data point. If you're pitching more than 1 packet, I suspect you're in the minority of homebrewers. Most of us (myself included) have been blindly pitching 1 packet without realizing we're underpitching based on the MFR cell count estimates.
 
brewbama said:
I stand corrected. You said Diamond but I searched and found 34/70. You are correct: Diamond is $4.27.

I love Label Peeler’s shipping policy.

Cheers!



Brewer’s Friend has a pretty good article below the calculator.

“Dry Yeast - billions of cells per gram:

No one agrees on the number of yeast cells per gram in dry yeast!
This is made more confusing because each yeast strain has different size cells and clumping tendencies.

We put in a reasonable default of 10 billion cells per gram of dry yeast.

Kaiser located a study which reports the following data on dry yeast ranging from 8-18 billion cells per gram:

Yeast B cells/g
Safale K-97 14
Safale S-04 8
Safbrew T-58 18
Safbrew S-33 16
Saflager S-23 10
Saflager S-189 9

Adapted from: Van Den Berg, S., & Van Landschoot, A. (2003). Practical use of dried yeasts in the brewing industry. CEREVISIA, 28(3), 25-30 (Table 1).

Mr.Malty says that dry yeast contains 20 billion cells per gram. Unfortunately we could not find a reference to a study that supports that number.

From the manufacturers:
Fermentis: > 6B cells/gram for US-05 and S-04.
Danstar: > 5B cells/gram for Nottingham yeast.

These numbers sound conservative and do not match with the study referenced above. According to our pitching calculator, with dry yeast, using the mfg's number of 6B cells/g, to hit a pitch rate of 0.75 (M cells / ml / ° P) for a 5 gallon batch @1.050 would require 3x 11g packs!

Link to a researcher claiming 20B, but only has an n of 1.

Most dry yeast packs come in 5g or 11g amounts. With dry yeast, starters are typically not made because dry yeast is relatively cheap - just buy more packs to hit the target pitch rate.”
Click to expand...
Dry yeast leaves the manufacturer ready to ferment and making a starter is detrimental.
 
twd000 said:
that's an interesting data point. If you're pitching more than 1 packet, I suspect you're in the minority of homebrewers. Most of us (myself included) have been blindly pitching 1 packet without realizing we're underpitching based on the MFR cell count estimates.
Click to expand...

I was in the same 1 pack boat. I pitch 1 gram per liter now.

Under pitching could be one reason why dry yeast gets a bad rap. Under pitching could cause stress resulting in sluggish ferment and off smells and flavors. I’m sure temp and OG play a role as well.
 
madscientist451 said:
I'm cheap and always save yeast slurry, even with dry yeast. So with the first dry pack, I'll make a 3 gallon batch and then toss the slurry into a full size batch. After that I'll use 1/2 the jar of slurry in the next batch and quit after 5-6 generations but sometimes I'll go longer. IMO, a good healthy pitch of yeast really makes a better beer.
Click to expand...

Lagers are the best use case for pitching on the cake. I made a half batch using a single packet of 34/70, and have since made 4 more full batches by either pitching on the cake, or saving and re-pitching 1/2-3/4 of the slurry. Because yeah, every calc says you need $30 of yeast to do it right, and F that.
 
So here is my rookie comment/question. Can you use the dry yeast and then save the slurry to make a starter for future purposes?
 
Yes, I've done it many times, but I usually use liquid yeast because there are more choices and I like trying different yeasts.
 
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madscientist451 said:
I've heard that saving yeast doesn't work as well with dry yeast, but I've been doing it for years without any problems. Your results may vary......
Click to expand...

The official position is:

“There is a risk of generating variants after a few generations that may result in a change of the aromatic profile of the beer. The maximum number of generations is highly dependent of the brewery and the process and should be evaluated based on experiences and consistency of the product.”

Having said that, many, many brewers recycle for multiple generations without issue.
 
brewbama said:
If you got into homebrewing to save money you may want to reconsider.
Click to expand...


I was referring to the common wisdom repeated here and elsewhere regarding liquid vs. dry yeasts. Everyone says "dry yeast is cheap, just buy another package instead of making a starter".

If one is interested in saving money by homebrewing, it is certainly possible.

I have a single-vessel keggle BIAB system on a surplus rolling cart in my garage. No HLT, no pumps, no conical fermentor, no glycol chiller, no stir plate. I ferment and serve from the same corny kegs that I have had for 10 years.

Re-pitching yeast can save ~1/3 of the cost of a cost of ingredients for a batch.
 
Last edited:
I agree process > equipment. However, fermenting with a robust pitch of dry yeast is a great way to ensure a fast start and finish without potential off flavors and smells due to sluggish first pitch and you still save money per batch over liquid yeast. Even more savings can be realized if you harvest yeast. I mean we’re talking an additional ~ $3 here.

Labelpeeler prices:

WLp001 $6.84
DME (100 grams) ~ .94 (more for a bigger starter or multi step starter)
Shipping $7.85

Add more for cold pack, bubble wrap, etc.

Total = $15.63

— OR —

2 packs of US-05 $5.68 ($2.84 each)
Shipping: free

No cold pack, bubble wrap, etc. required.

Total = $5.68

Savings per batch by using 2 packs of dry yeast vs 1 tube of Wlp001 and making a starter = $9.95
 

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