dry hop question

[walker111]

Hi all
I brewed a double batch of lake walk pale ale 2 weeks ago and time to keg one. I usually dry hop in my fermonsters dumping the pellets in whole and am aware of the oxidation in these types of beer and IPA and almost impossible to avoid without some way of a closed transfer.
This time around, on day 6 of fermentation, I bagged my 2 0z per brew of dry hops in sanitised muslin bags, the same type I use in my kettle, and put a medium sized spoon sanitised in with the hops thinking it would be enough weight to allow the whole thing to sink to the bottom.
Well wrong, it stayed hanging suspended below the surface and I am hoping that the hops made enough contact over those 7-8 days.
Next time I will add more sanitised weight in there.

Anyone see major issue with this ? Thought I should maybe throw some more in but they are only going to float.

Didn't want to open top yet as oxidation limiting ..... am working on this.

 

[IslandLizard]

Maybe not 100% of its capability, but you should get at least some extraction, just from soaking. A little swirling every day may speed up the extraction/dispersion process. Maybe do that for a couple more days.

And yes, keep it closed, don't let the CO2 out.

I agree submerged would be best, so look for something heavier. Maybe a few spoons. After you've racked your beer out, save the baggy with the hops. Stick with some extra water back in the Fermonster and see how many spoons it takes (or whatever else weights you have) to fully submerge.

There are a few ways to help agitate the dry hop bag. One is to string a piece of unflavored floss to it, and lead it back outside, along the airlock. Keep the bag suspended and swirl gently once or twice a day.
Or pump/dunk it somewhat, but then you'd need to loosen it a bit, which may let air in.

 

[walker111]

Thanks IL. i will give both fermonsters a little action swirl to agitate the bags some. By day 8 now I would think the hops gave what they could have .

 

[rburrelli]

Thanks IL. i will give both fermonsters a little action swirl to agitate the bags some. By day 8 now I would think the hops gave what they could have .

Latest research on hops indicates that they “give waht they have” in 2-4 days. The longer contact time seems to make them more vegetal. Of course, that depends upon the hop being used.

 

[Jag75]

I use stainless washers . They're decent size , heavy and do the job.

 

[IslandLizard]

I use stainless washers . They're decent size , heavy and do the job.

Yup, a stainless steel fitting works wonders. A spare T or elbow will drag the heaviest NEIPA dry hop load down, if bagged.

I've also used glass marbles, but don't bag dry hops anymore, adding them loose with agitation gives better extraction, IMO.
They get agitated twice a day during the dry hop time (2-3 days), which also keeps them suspended. They all sink during cold crashing.

 

[IslandLizard]

Latest research on hops indicates that they “give waht they have” in 2-4 days. The longer contact time seems to make them more vegetal. Of course, that depends upon the hop being used.

Grassiness depends very much on the dry hops used. Most high alpha acid IPA hops won't give off grassy flavors/aromas that fast. But they may deliver an abundance of other flavors and aromas that overshadow that.

Now say, using Bramling Cross or Fuggles as a dry hop may be a different story. Although the Brits were very successful introducing "IPAs" to India by just adding those fairly low AA hops to casks to prevent spoiling during the few months trip on board there, mostly in the tropics. Those beers were desirable! Beer history was made.

Now, just letting dry hops float won't give very good extraction, IMO. They'd benefit largely from some means to increase extraction and dispersion. Hence some form of agitation.

 

[Pkrd]

I use stainless washers . They're decent size , heavy and do the job.

And my kids wont steal them.

I'm very surprised a spoon wasn't enough to sink the bag.

 

[walker111]

Yeah me too.

 

[Jag75]

I used 2 shot glasses once . It sunk at first but once the pellets swelled up it surfaced.

 

[couchsending]

So why does everyone think that the hops need to be submerged to get the best extraction? Or that sitting on the bottom would be that much better? When any brewery that’s dry hopping in closed CCVs adds dry hops loose through the top port what do you think happens? Some sink but most probably float, same as in your carboy or whatever vessel you’re using that you can see inside of.

Most of the breweries I know of making great hoppy beer have all tried cannons, torpedoes, recirculating, etc and you’ll hear most have simply gone back to dropping them in through the dry hop port for various reasons.

Personally I’d rather have them floating on top than laying on the bottom mixed in with yeast. Hops are not exactly healthy for yeast, especially high alpha hops. The hop oils can coat yeast cells and cause autolysis and all sorts of weird off flavors and aromas. Ever experienced those weird aromas of rotting or “overripe” fruits and vegetables in heavily hopped modern IPA?

 

[walker111]

Good points that I can not dispute. The bags filled with hops actually hung below the surface into the beer after I agitated some. I found the knot at the top and material kept it floating and the bag hung almost horizontal submerged with the spoon weight pulling a portion down. Time will tell.

I kegged one yesterday and it was quite bright with hop flavor ( mosacic and amarillo) it a taste test. I pulled the bag from the other fermented beer as I had it in there 10 days and was weary. Didn't want to remove the lid but had to.
Working on closed transfers as I ordered some ferntasausas kits to adapt to my fermonsters.

 

[Vale71]

When any brewery that’s dry hopping in closed CCVs adds dry hops loose through the top port what do you think happens?

The hop material all comes out the dump port eventually all sorted by particle size. The coarsest particles actually come out pretty fast (depending on fermenter size, obviously) and can be dumped very early in the process, which is good because they're 99% made of vegetable matter which we don't want to leave in the FV a minute longer than necessary. Lupulin glands on the other hand are quite small and take much longer which is good for aroma extraction.

 

[couchsending]

The hop material all comes out the dump port eventually all sorted by particle size. The coarsest particles actually come out pretty fast (depending on fermenter size, obviously) and can be dumped very early in the process, which is good because they're 99% made of vegetable matter which we don't want to leave in the FV a minute longer than necessary. Lupulin glands on the other hand are quite small and take much longer which is good for aroma extraction.

of course it comes out the dump port eventually but a large percentage of it certainly floats until the beer is crashed just like it would in a carboy or any fermentation vessel.

And there are plenty of aromatic compounds found in the bracht material not just the lupulin/oil.

 

[Vale71]

of course it comes out the dump port eventually but a large percentage of it certainly floats until the beer is crashed just like it would in a carboy or any fermentation vessel.

And there are plenty of aromatic compounds found in the bracht material not just the lupulin/oil.

No it won't, it will all sink just with different sedimentation rates.

Not sure what you mean by "bracht" material?

 

[couchsending]

No it won't, it will all sink just with different sedimentation rates.

Not sure what you mean by "bracht" material?

As someone that uses much smaller CCVs I can tell you that a large percentage of the hops will still remain on top long after the ideal length of time you should be dry hopping for. Even with cold cold crashing depending on the hopping load (and if you’re fining) you can still end up with a small layer on top. Sure given enough time the hops will all fall to the bottom but that is much longer than they should be in there for.

I spelled Bract wrong. The leafy matter of hops. The non lupulin portion.

 

[SanPancho]

I will second the notion that those ****ers will often still be floating long past the time for them to come out. Seen in it in 5 gallons as well as 500. Seems to me to be the largest pieces as they’ll trap c02 bubbles and stay floating. Also dependant on how uniform the hops are cut up/ground up during pelletization. Not a constant occurrence but enough to know it happens.

 

[Jag75]

I attach a stainless washer to the hop bag string . Washer goes down bags stays off the bottom but doesnt make it to the surface. Ive tried dry hopping commando . It was a pain the whole time. I even cold crashed for days and it didn't matter. I fought clogged poppets for most of the transfer . No thanks , id rather get kicked in the nuts.

 

[Vale71]

And I've never seen a single hop pellet not disappear instantly into the beer, and I always shine a flashlight down the sight glass to check that not a single pellet is stuck somewhere.
Didn't know the bract was called that in English. Learn something new every day...