Chocolate-Hazelnut (Nutella) Porter

[thunderaxe]

hi y'all,

i've been wanting to brew a chocolate-hazelnut porter for a while that comes as close as possible to the flavour of nutella, while still, you know, being a beer and not just a giant sugar bomb. i've made two previous attempts, neither of which came particularly close to what i was looking for so i thought i'd try adapting jamil's chocolate hazelnut stout recipe and modifying it toward my goal. one big thing is that i'm *not* looking for is any roasty or coffee notes since there are none of those in nutella. just nutty and chocolatey, so i've chosen every ingredient with an eye toward those two specific flavours. let me know what you think:

2-row 63%
chocolate rye 10%
flaked oats 10%
victory malt 7%
crystal 60 5%
carawheat (~40°) 5%

mash at 156
OG 1.074
FG 1.023
ABV 6.7%

scottish ale yeast

hops would just be bittering to about 20 IBU, maybe summit or whatever i have on hand boiled for 60 so little to no character remaining there. maybe some fuggles for extra earthiness at 10 minutes?

---

my reasoning for the grain bill (the main thing i'm focusing on right now) is as follows:

2-row: i'd consider marris otter for more nuttiness but i'm not certain it would make a discernable difference with this many specialty grains? especially the victory in there

chocolate rye: substituting both the chocolate malt and black patent in jamil's recipe. i've read many descriptions of this one as having a creamy, milk-chocolate flavour and the least amount of roast on account of rye having no hull. i might consider switching it to chocolate spelt based on @Queequeg 's experiences.

flaked oats: for extra creaminess. nutella contains a high amount of palm oil and milk solids which give it its creaminess. i might consider toasting them for extra nuttiness.

victory: substituting the munich in jamil's recipe. i figure it will provide similar malty bready notes as the munich but with a greater emphasis on nutty.

crystal 60: substituting for crystal 80 in jamil's recipe. again, seems nuttier but also it's a crystal grade that i think i'm more likely to be able to use the leftovers of in another recipe

carawheat: substituting for crystal 40. described as nutty, caramelly, and creamy, so sounds like just what i want in this recipe.

the two crystal malts also have their percentages reduced slightly from jamil's recipe, which called for 6.8% of each for a total of 13.6%, and an additional 3.4% carapils, which seems excessive. i mean i want it to be sweet but not cloyingly so.

anyway i know this is a long post but let me know what you think.
thanks!

 

[Queequeg]

Firstly I would say use more oats, about 20% makes a notable difference.

I would replace some base malt with wheat malt otherwise you will lose head retention by using a lot of oats.

I don't see the point of using crystal 40 and 60. I would just use one.

Chocolate rye is definitely more nutty than chocolate spelt.

imo victory might be too assertive, belgian biscuit might be a better option.

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

Do you want the Nutella flavor from grains only or from an addition?

If the latter, go here:

http://www.apexflavors.com/Beverage-Industry/Craft-Brewing/SweetBrown~2885

Go down to chocolate hazelnut flavor. Tastes spot on to Nutella, won't have any of the cloying sugar either.

 

[thunderaxe]

how much wheat malt do you think? 10%? or more like 20?

also, what do you mean about victory being too assertive? i'm adding it specifically because it's the most commonly referenced malt for "nutty" flavours. does belgian biscuit malt have the same nuttiness? or should i maybe go for less than 7%?

I would replace some base malt with wheat malt otherwise you will lose head retention by using a lot of oats.
...
imo victory might be too assertive, belgian biscuit might be a better option.

 

[Queequeg]

I always use a couple of lbs and it seems to do the trick.

My advice would be to try some raw grains and see what you prefer. To my pallet victory is quite dry tasting, but it will probably be fine in a stout.

I just trying to offer you alternatives because descriptions don't always match expectations.

 

[thunderaxe]

ideally i'd get as much chocolate and hazelnut flavour from the grains, hops and yeast as possible and then fill in the rest with extracts.

that nutella flavour extract looks great but shipping to canada is almost as much as the product itself. also my girlfriend made me a really nice all-natural hazelnut extract so i'm going to use that at bottling and i'll add some cocoa to the boil too.

Do you want the Nutella flavor from grains only or from an addition?

If the latter, go here:

http://www.apexflavors.com/Beverage-Industry/Craft-Brewing/SweetBrown~2885

Go down to chocolate hazelnut flavor. Tastes spot on to Nutella, won't have any of the cloying sugar either.

 

[Queequeg]

If you are using cocoa in the boil make sure it is debittered and undutched. Mix it with a little water first into a slurry, then gradually add wort to it before adding it to the kettle.

Be prepared to have to cold crash too to remove any grittiness

 

[thunderaxe]

If you are using cocoa in the boil make sure it is debittered and undutched.

debittered i get but what's wrong with the dutch process? does it reduce the chocolate flavour too much? i would think having a more alkaline (or pH neutral) cocoa would be beneficial by reducing the acidity of the beer.

 

[Queequeg]

Undutched has a pH of 5.5, dutched is somewhere between 7-8.

If you process is correct your final beer pH will be between 4.2-4.8. So my reasoning is dutched has the greatest potential to raise your final pH out of that range which is not desirable.

 

[thunderaxe]

i don't know that there is a debittering process other than the dutch process? as far as i can tell, there is natural (unprocessed) cocoa powder, which is described as bitter and citrusy -- not at all what i'm looking for -- and dutched. i'm not sure that the small amount of cocoa powder would even raise the pH that much, nor that it could be detrimental to the beer.

 

[thunderaxe]

anyway, i've revised the recipe according to some of the advice here and some other recent discoveries.

50% maris otter
15% flaked oats
12.5% wheat malt
10% carafa ii special
7.5% carabohemian (75°)
5% victory malt

i decided it was worth it to spend the few extra dollars on a richer and nuttier base malt, hence the maris otter. i bumped the flaked oats up to 15% and added a pound (for a 3 gallon batch) of wheat malt.

it turns out i can't get chocolate spelt or chocolate rye from any of my LHBSs but i can get carafa special; also i had a black lager recently that was made with carafa special and it had all the smooth chocolate flavour i was looking for without any roasted or astringent flavours, which is exactly what i'm looking for, so that's the roasted malt i'm going with. in looking up whatever information i could find on the aforementioned beer i also came across weyermann carabohemian, a 75°L crystal malt for which the weyermann flavour wheel ranks "cocoa" as the strongest flavour. that obviously sounds promising, so i made it the sole crystal malt and went with 7.5% overall. last of all i brought the victory malt down to 5%.

 

[Queequeg]

Recipe looks good, you might be able to go higher with the carafa II special because it is debittered. I just made a stout with 15% chocolate spelt so I feedback in the next couple of days and let you know how it tastes from the fermenter.

 

[Queequeg]

So reporting back on my chocolate stout. I dun goofed! tastes gross, either an infection or my deliberate stressing of the yeast as ruined the beer. I will be dumping it and rebrewing this week.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Have a look at this thread on chocolate stouts for some inspiration.