Chill Haze - Breaks and cold conditioning

[whovous]

That old learning curve is a long one, ain't it?

I've just gotten far enough along the learning curve for chill haze to matter to me. Before the current brew, my experience was entirely with five Brooklyn Brew Shop one gallon all grain kits. The results varied in quality (for which I blame myself, not the kits), but every ounce was completely cloudy at every step of the proceedings.

So, I bought a Brau Supply kit and did a 2.5 gallon AG APA brew from my own recipe. I bottled two weeks ago (no cold crash or gelatin) and was very pleased to see how crystal clear my beer appeared to be in the bottles.

I put two beers in the fridge on Tuesday night and I poured them on Wednesday night. They tasted great, but they became much cloudier as a result of chilling.

So, I have chill haze, and I'd like to know what I can do about it.

1. How important is the hot side break? Is my goal to have and maintain a vigorous boil? Does this break matter at all, vis a vis chill haze? Does using a mister to control the break mean anything, hazically speaking?

2. How important is the cold side break? I do not remember a lot about the cold break on this one, but I do recall that the next brew (currently in the fermenter and about to dry hop) had a monstrous cold break, and left a fair amount of foam in the pot after draining. Is this a good thing?

3. What, if anything, should I do with the "breakage'? Chill haze comes from protein, as does the foam in hot and cold breaks, right? Should I try to skim off that foam on the theory that taking off the protein now means it can't cause a chill haze later, or should I just ignore it? If I leave it there on the hot side, it eventually winds up back in the wort, does it not? I don't really have a choice about leaving some of the cold side foam behind when I drain to the fermenter, but should I actively try to remove more?

4. What about cold conditioning? The bottles I opened last night were refrigerated for about 24 hours. It was my plan to add a bottle or two to the fridge each night and drink them the next night. Now, I've put ten bottles in at once on Wednesday night, and won't touch them until Monday night at the earliest. Is this likely to reduce the haze? Or is the answer "it depends"?

I realize this is not a definitive list of chill haze control methods, but I think I get cold crashing and adding gelatin as control methods. I just haven't tried them yet.

Advice?

 

[unionrdr]

I heat the wort on "HIGH" to get a good, foamy hot break. Don't bother skimming, it'll settle out during the wort chill. Getting the wort chilled down, they say, in 20 minutes or less gives a good cold break. So I then strain the chilled wort into the fermenter. It's @ 75F when I do this. Then top off to recipe volume with spring water that's been chilling in the fridge a day or two before brew day. This rapidly reduces the temp to 65F or so, producing another cold break. Then, when it's time to put the bottles in the fridge, they need 5-7 days to give any chill haze a chance to form & settle out like a fog.

 

[whovous]

You were a professional slot car racer? I hate you! I loved slot car racing as a kid, and thought it simply disappeared for a great many years.

Let me try to better understand this. The boil causes the proteins to foam, and they then settle to the bottom with the rest of the trub, is that it? In that case, the more foam the better, right?

As for topping off, isn't it better to top off to OG rather than volume? I just learned that one, and don't want to unlearn it so soon.

Will "any" chill haze settle out after a week or so in the fridge, or just some of them?

 

[unionrdr]

You were a professional slot car racer? I hate you! I loved slot car racing as a kid, and thought it simply disappeared for a great many years.

Let me try to better understand this. The boil causes the proteins to foam, and they then settle to the bottom with the rest of the trub, is that it? In that case, the more foam the better, right?

As for topping off, isn't it better to top off to OG rather than volume? I just learned that one, and don't want to unlearn it so soon.

Will "any" chill haze settle out after a week or so in the fridge, or just some of them?

Wow, that came outta nowhere? Yeah, I was a touring pro with a 3-time world champion as a tire sponsor for my son & I, Jan Limpach. I won the local Division I GTP championship in '97, losing only one race. 10th overall in the Ohio Challenge Cup. Still have my stuff, including a controller with mosfets & micro-switches that gave a 3-speed shifter & 4 position brake sensitivity.
Anyway...The proteins make the foamy hot break, right before it boils. So the more hot break, the more proteins you're getting coagulated out. Some prefer to top off to OG. I prefer to top off to recipe volume & consider the bit higher gravity as a bonus. All the chill haze will form & settle out in a week, on average. If it looks like it isn't settling, it could be starch haze from the mash not getting good conversion.

 

[whovous]

A touring pro in slot car racing? I had no idea it ever got that involved. I was just a kid in the basement of the local hobby shop. And shifters and brakes? On slot cars!? Yikes! It warn't like that in the 60s. When I say I hate you, please understand that I mean I am blind with envy.

As for topping off to recipe volume, for me, that has always meant lower gravity, not higher. I do AG, and I am a long way from dialing in an efficient process. My personal best is about 70% and I am not sure what my second was, as I try to forget such things.

But thanks for the responses. I am slowly wrapping my head around this stuff.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, there were touring pros, even in the 60's. I started in a barbershop basement 1/32 scale track in 1963. Found big track 1/24-1/25 scale racing in Elyria at The Slot Shop, then onto bigger tracks like Hobbymasters in Cleveland. Then all over the state in the regionals, trying to earn the invite to the nats. I first met Jan Limpach in 1964 at The Slot Shop, when he'd just won his first world championship. He also drives a porsche like the one Steve McQueen drove at the beginning of Lemans. The high dollar controllers with shifters & brakes came along in the 90's. That controller was a kit for $150, with built Franci's going for $750 that made my car faster. Al Rootie let me try his once.
Odd that topping off to recipe volume is lower gravity for you? Maybe that lower gravity is coming from lower efficiency, the way I've been experiencing them? Take it a step at a time, we'll help ya with the rest.
As for the racing, Time slips away, leavin' you with nothin' Mr...but boring stories of...glory days! Yeah, they'll pass you buy, glory days! When you were the one in the young girls eye, glory days!...

 

[whovous]

Oh, definitely lower efficiency.

Pinball was the game I got halfway good at, not slot cars, though I never won much more than a T-shirt (still have one, in fact).

I've frequently considered just not getting any older, but I have yet to follow through on that.

 

[unionrdr]

Well then, we'll just have to start with efficiency. I turn the brew kettle on my electric stoves dial up to high to get the mash/sparge wort to a hard boil asap. Usually 3 1/2, maybe 4 gallons in my short, 5 gallon SS kettle. Right before the boil, I have to stir like mad to keep the foam down. It bloops like boiling lava after about 3 minutes, going into the boil that is. I let it do that for a minute or two, then turn the dial down to about 8.8. Then start the 1 hour timer & add the bittering hops. I have them weighed out in plastic, 3oz bathroom dixie cups.
Then proceed as previously described with ice bath down to 75F, strain into fermenter (1- 1/4" dual layer fine mesh), then top off to recipe volume with chilled spring water, sir roughly a couple minutes to mix well. Take OG sample & pour in starter/rehydrated yeast & seal it up. By the time my #2 son started growing up, he described me as " the old master". Like JM Fangio, first 5-time world driving champion, who was called " El Maestro". I got good at driving real cars as well, thanks to my step grandad being a " runner".

 

[whovous]

Yeah, its the sparge where I need the work. I've started using a single pot all-electric recirculating system from Brew Supply (the Mini version) and got 70% on my first try, and quite a bit lower on the second. I am sure that this number will come back up as I dial in my practices and get better at controlling the controller that comes with this system.

 

[unionrdr]

Just take detailed notes & try to learn where you're shortcomings are. Try to learn something from every batch. I try to do that, all the way to bottling, tasting etc. I guess it's a left-over from racing?

 

[whovous]

My first sentence in this thread:

That old learning curve is a long one, ain't it?

It seems that turning off the traction control doesn't help much either.

 

[unionrdr]

Well, it all depends on how quickly you learn. The higher ups at Ford used to fear that I'd climb the ladder faster than them & screwed me behind my back every chance they got. All because I was a quick study. The more I'm around brewers, the more I learn...(best Arnold voice).

 

[whovous]

Well, when I was a kid, I was pretty sure I was a better and faster thinker than everyone I knew. As I have aged, I've come to the conclusion that we are all idiots.

 

[unionrdr]

Or that we're at the point in life where it stops giving & starts taking away?...

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

If you seem to have poor efficiency I would bet you're dealing with starch haze and chill haze.

Do you do anything to dial in your mash pH?

How about your grain crush and grain/water ratio?

 

[whovous]

Poor efficiency when I was doing one gallon kits in odd size pans AND had little clue of what I was doing could have been almost anything, and I am not too worried about that past. I got 70% without trying on my first go with the Brau Supply kit (this one, FWIW), and I am pretty sure I can get it back.

I do not know what starch haze is. I do know this batch seemed crystal clear after a few days in the bottle and the haze returned only when chilled.

I have my LHBS mill my grain twice, so I do not think the milling problems the gallon kits might have had carry over to this brew.

Grain/water ratio is a work in process, but I think I know what I need to do next.

Mash pH? Hmm, I've added some gypsum to try to make the water harder, but never thought about what it might do to the pH. That is not an issue I've thought about yet.

 

[unionrdr]

Starch haze is from incomplete conversion of the starches in the grains to sugars. It causes what looks like chill haze, but doesn't go away during fridge time.

 

[whovous]

But doesn't starch haze stick around all the time? That is, wouldn't starch haze appear even before I put the bottles in the fridge?

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, starch haze doesn't go away, but it seems to me it did show a little before fridge time/

 

[Yooper]

That old learning curve is a long one, ain't it?

I've just gotten far enough along the learning curve for chill haze to matter to me. Before the current brew, my experience was entirely with five Brooklyn Brew Shop one gallon all grain kits. The results varied in quality (for which I blame myself, not the kits), but every ounce was completely cloudy at every step of the proceedings.

So, I bought a Brau Supply kit and did a 2.5 gallon AG APA brew from my own recipe. I bottled two weeks ago (no cold crash or gelatin) and was very pleased to see how crystal clear my beer appeared to be in the bottles.

I put two beers in the fridge on Tuesday night and I poured them on Wednesday night. They tasted great, but they became much cloudier as a result of chilling.

So, I have chill haze, and I'd like to know what I can do about it.

1. How important is the hot side break? Is my goal to have and maintain a vigorous boil? Does this break matter at all, vis a vis chill haze? Does using a mister to control the break mean anything, hazically speaking?

2. How important is the cold side break? I do not remember a lot about the cold break on this one, but I do recall that the next brew (currently in the fermenter and about to dry hop) had a monstrous cold break, and left a fair amount of foam in the pot after draining. Is this a good thing?

3. What, if anything, should I do with the "breakage'? Chill haze comes from protein, as does the foam in hot and cold breaks, right? Should I try to skim off that foam on the theory that taking off the protein now means it can't cause a chill haze later, or should I just ignore it? If I leave it there on the hot side, it eventually winds up back in the wort, does it not? I don't really have a choice about leaving some of the cold side foam behind when I drain to the fermenter, but should I actively try to remove more?

4. What about cold conditioning? The bottles I opened last night were refrigerated for about 24 hours. It was my plan to add a bottle or two to the fridge each night and drink them the next night. Now, I've put ten bottles in at once on Wednesday night, and won't touch them until Monday night at the earliest. Is this likely to reduce the haze? Or is the answer "it depends"?

I realize this is not a definitive list of chill haze control methods, but I think I get cold crashing and adding gelatin as control methods. I just haven't tried them yet.

Advice?

1. Hot break is crucial. After the hot break, the wort actually looks like egg drop soup- that's a good thing!

2. A great cold break is really important, and does help prevent chill haze. You can eventually get a clear beer without one, as even no-chill brewers do get clear beer eventually, but it really helps with clarity right away.

3. Break material, once formed, does not redissolve into the wort. You can remove it (some say hot break material may cause off-flavors while cold break material is supposedly good for the yeast), but I don't. I don't have a way to filter out hot break (it's finer than my bazooka tube), and all of my cold break goes into the fermenter since I have a CFC.

4. Cold conditioning does clear the beer well. It probably needs more than a week to get rid of chill haze, but the yeast will flocculate better at cold temperatures and so will other suspended solids that create haze in the beer.

I wrote this article a while back about clarity and break material, maybe it could be helpful to you: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/clear-wort-clear-beer.html

 

[whovous]

1. Hot break is crucial. After the hot break, the wort actually looks like egg drop soup- that's a good thing!

2. A great cold break is really important, and does help prevent chill haze. You can eventually get a clear beer without one, as even no-chill brewers do get clear beer eventually, but it really helps with clarity right away.

3. Break material, once formed, does not redissolve into the wort. You can remove it (some say hot break material may cause off-flavors while cold break material is supposedly good for the yeast), but I don't. I don't have a way to filter out hot break (it's finer than my bazooka tube), and all of my cold break goes into the fermenter since I have a CFC.

4. Cold conditioning does clear the beer well. It probably needs more than a week to get rid of chill haze, but the yeast will flocculate better at cold temperatures and so will other suspended solids that create haze in the beer.

I wrote this article a while back about clarity and break material, maybe it could be helpful to you: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/clear-wort-clear-beer.html

Thanks for the response and the link, Yooper. Both are very helpful. They inspire another question: I understand that I want a strong rolling boil until the hot side break subsides, and then I can dial my heating element back a bit, so long as I maintain the boil. I also suspect that if I am not careful, or if my pot is too small, then, that hot break can roll right over the side of my pot.

Hence my question: If I take steps to control the break, like spraying the foam with StarSan, or even plain water, am I putting a little extra clarity at risk? Put another way, if I want the clearest wort, should I let the hot side break come as close to boiling over as I can stand? If the wooden spoon trick works, I guess that would be the best of all worlds.

Thanks again.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the response and the link, Yooper. Both are very helpful. They inspire another question: I understand that I want a strong rolling boil until the hot side break subsides, and then I can dial my heating element back a bit, so long as I maintain the boil. I also suspect that if I am not careful, or if my pot is too small, then, that hot break can roll right over the side of my pot.

Hence my question: If I take steps to control the break, like spraying the foam with StarSan, or even plain water, am I putting a little extra clarity at risk? Put another way, if I want the clearest wort, should I let the hot side break come as close to boiling over as I can stand? If the wooden spoon trick works, I guess that would be the best of all worlds.

Thanks again.

Good question! I don't know the answer, though. I think you still get a hot break with fermcap, but it's been a very long time (years, I think) since I've used it. I boil 12+ gallons in a converted keg, so I definitely play the "turn up, turn down" game for a few minutes until the hot break myself.

When I did 5 gallon batches, I'd turn my PID to 65% to maintain a rolling boil, but now that I do 10.5 gallon batches, I just leave it at 100% the whole time, unless it's close to a boil over and then I turn off/on/off/on until that is over with. It happens fast!

I don't think a boilover means the clearest wort, but it seems like they happen to all of us.

 

[VegasBrew1]

I've frequently considered just not getting any older, but I have yet to follow through on that.[/QUOTE]

Man, if you get that one down, it would be far important than brewing. Sacrilegious though it may sound!

 

[gwapogorilla]

Chill haze....yep, I have it too. I've done everything except play with the water ph to get rid of it.
Then, I found this great little solution to looking at that damned chill haze.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NPIWBGK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Problem solved.

 

[Riot]

Building a counterflow chiller did wonders for chill haze in my beer. Going from 200ish to under 80 in seconds gets a fantastic cold break. Sure it all ends up in the bucket but it settles out with the yeast and doesn't seem to hurt anything. Might be worth looking into if you've got like $50 to spare and a blowtorch to work with

 

[whovous]

Good question! I don't know the answer, though. I think you still get a hot break with fermcap, but it's been a very long time (years, I think) since I've used it. I boil 12+ gallons in a converted keg, so I definitely play the "turn up, turn down" game for a few minutes until the hot break myself.

When I did 5 gallon batches, I'd turn my PID to 65% to maintain a rolling boil, but now that I do 10.5 gallon batches, I just leave it at 100% the whole time, unless it's close to a boil over and then I turn off/on/off/on until that is over with. It happens fast!

I don't think a boilover means the clearest wort, but it seems like they happen to all of us.

OK, I think I am going to try skating close to the edge next time. I'll go to 100% on the PID for the boil and leave it there as long as I can stand to do so, and I won't do anything to combat the hot break unless and until it threatens to go over the sides. I guess I will try the wooden spoon trick, though.

 

[estricklin]

Adding a protein rest to your mash can help reduce chill haze, something that wasn't mentioned in this thread I don't think.

Polyclar is a chemical that you can add right to your primary, (let's say during cold crashing), that is a BEAST for reducing chill haze. Many, many commercial breweries use it because it is highly effective and dirt cheap. It specifically targets compounds that cause chill haze, and will not to my knowledge, reduce haze from yeast or hops. The wine folks are also quite fond of it.