Can someone help me make sense of this water report?

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

I had my water tested, and now need some advice on what to do with the information. I tested two samples. The first is my untreated, raw well water. The second sample was the same raw well water run through a whole house water softener and then through my reverse osmosis system. I was really surprised by the amount of sodium in the raw water, but it does make sense as I am near the Brazos River, and one of its sources is salt water.

Sample #1 - raw well water

pH 7.3
Total dissolved solids 681
Electrical conductivity 1.13
Cations/anions, me/L 12.0/11.7

Sodium 99 ppm
Potassium, K 2 ppm
Calcium, Ca 128 ppm
Magnesium, Mg 15 ppm
Total hardness, CaCO3 383 ppm
Nitrate, NO3-N 4.5 ppm
Sulfate, SO4-S 12 ppm
Chloride, Cl 95 ppm
Carbonate, CO3 <1.0 ppm
Bicarbonate, HCO3 481 ppm
Total alkalinity, CaCO3 395 ppm
Phosphorus, P 0.04 ppm
Iron, Fe <0.01 ppm


Sample # 2 - well water, softend and RO

pH 7.1
Total dissolved solids 690
Electrical conductivity 1.15
Cations/anions, me/L 10.5/10.4

Sodium 236 ppm
Potassium, K <1 ppm
Calcium, Ca 4 ppm
Magnesium, Mg <1 ppm
Total hardness, CaCO3 10 ppm
Nitrate, NO3-N 4.6 ppm
Sulfate, SO4-S 11 ppm
Chloride, Cl 94 ppm
Carbonate, CO3 <1.0 ppm
Bicarbonate, HCO3 406 ppm
Total alkalinity, CaCO3 333 ppm
Phosphorus, P 0.04 ppm
Iron, Fe <0.01 ppm

From what I've researched, my raw water is probably pretty decent for brewing except for the high sodium content. I was also a bit surprised by the chloride content, as this water is not treated in any way. Anyhow, which water would you use and how would I go about adjusting its profile for brewing? I brew mostly German beers, but my mind has been opened to the world of porters and stouts over the last week. My brews tend to be on the darker, maltier side of things. I have almost zero interest in brewing IPA style beers. Thanks for any insight y'all can provide me.

 

[The_Bishop]

If that second sample is 'RO' water, your RO system isn't doing diddly. That second sample looks like water from a water softener, not reverse osmosis unless your RO system is broken/plumbed wrong.

 

[ajdelange]

I hope that the water listed as going through an RO system was accidentally tapped at the input to that system and not the output. If so there is a major problem with that unit. The numbers are roughly in line with what one would expect from a softening system. The equivalent amount of sodium is increased by the equivalent diminishment of calcium and magnesium in going through the softener.

If there is incursion of salt water into your aquifer it is going to boost the chloride as well as the sodium content. Salt is NaCl after all.

Your biggest problem with this water is its high alkalinity - almost 8 mEq/L. The answer to water like this is definitely RO but a working RO system would remove at least 95% of minerals from the feed water.

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

That was also a concern of mine, that the RO system isn't functioning properly. I just got off the phone with my well man, and he is coming to change the filters and the membranes ASAP. What can I expect the chloride and sodium levels to be after the membranes are changed? And as far as brewing now with my raw well water, what do y'all suggest?

And I assume that once the RO system is functioning properly, the answer is to use the RO water and build the profile up from there?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Your well water is almost as bad as mine. From experience, my advice is to avoid it.

I agree that your RO unit is not functioning. The TDS reading alone confirms this. TDS does not drop when water is softened. But it drops a bunch when passed through an RO unit. I would expect a TDS of about 50 from your water and a functioning RO unit. And Alkalinity at about 25. Bicarb at about 30.5. All of this being ballpark of course.

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Are you sure you didn't simply make the mistake of grabbing the "RO" sample from the homes softened water? Can you take a quick TDS reading off of your RO unit?

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

 

[ajdelange]

That was also a concern of mine, that the RO system isn't functioning properly. I just got off the phone with my well man, and he is coming to change the filters and the membranes ASAP. What can I expect the chloride and sodium levels to be after the membranes are changed?

You should expect them to go down to 1% or so of their softener output values (and you should, especially with that alkalinity and hardness, feed an RO unit from a softener). Thus sodium should go down to ~ 2.5 mg/L, chloride to about 1 and alkalinity to about 3. This assumes you install a membrane rated for 99% rejection!

And as far as brewing now with my raw well water, what do y'all suggest?

Buy RO water or spring water.

And I assume that once the RO system is functioning properly, the answer is to use the RO water and build the profile up from there?

Yes.

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

Thanks for the help guys. I'm positive the RO sample came from the RO system. It's a completely different faucet at my sink. Once I get it functioning properly, with the quality of my well water being what it is, is blending them an option at all? Or should I only use RO water and make it what I want it to be?

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

On my first all grain batch, I mashed with my well water and sparged with what I thought was my RO water. As it turns out, I just sparged with softened water. I missed my target OG by 2 or 3 points and my efficiency was only 67%. Could the alkalinity of my mash have anything to do with that? I feel like my process is solid. Maybe my water is holding me back.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thanks for the help guys. I'm positive the RO sample came from the RO system. It's a completely different faucet at my sink. Once I get it functioning properly, with the quality of my well water being what it is, is blending them an option at all? Or should I only use RO water and make it what I want it to be?

The main problem is that if you blend them, your alkalinity is still going to be very high, but your calcium is going to drop below desired levels. At 30% well you are down to only 38 ppm calcium, but your alkalinity is still 120. And this assumes that you are blending with distilled or DI water. Given your starting water, I'm not fully confident that your RO will be as fantastic as A.J. claims it will be.

If you do choose to blend them, you will need to add acidity to both the strike and sparge waters.

Your best bet will be to fix the RO unit, use it at 100%, and add your own minerals.

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, blending is an option. So is decarbonation (lime treatment or heating). As is a combination of decarbonation and blending. Or blending, decarbonation and acid treatment.

Blending is certainly simple enough but to effectively lower the alkalinity by blending alone you'd need blends of 9:1 or more. At that point, you might just as well go to 100% RO, attain full control and not have to worry about what the final mix turns out to be. If you go to the other options or combinations of them you add challenges. Now I fully applaud those who wish to undertake those challenges in order to better understand what is going on but for many others it's already complicated enough.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

On my first all grain batch, I mashed with my well water and sparged with what I thought was my RO water. As it turns out, I just sparged with softened water. I missed my target OG by 2 or 3 points and my efficiency was only 67%. Could the alkalinity of my mash have anything to do with that? I feel like my process is solid. Maybe my water is holding me back.

I don't think this scenario is the reason for your efficiency issue. I'm not sure what it may be, but alkalinity is most likely not the answer. If you only brew occasionally, increasing the malt bill to compensate is a relatively inexpensive solution. It gets more costly if you brew often.

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

Alright. Thanks for helping me out. My plan is to get the RO system back up and going and get another test on it to give me a baseline. Then I'll adjust according to the style of beer I'm brewing. I've been playing around with bru'n water, and it appears it's just trial and error figuring out what additions to make to the water. You change the number in the box and see how it changes the water profile. Is this the only way to go about this, or are there any online calculators that will analyze you current and intended water profile and calculate for you exactly what to add? Yes, I'm that lazy sometimes.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

This one does, but you may find using it a bit daunting at first: http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html

Most water profiles are impossible to hit dead on. I personally don't use them much (if at all), as I am not a believer in them.

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

So how do you formulate your brewing water?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So how do you formulate your brewing water?

For lite colored Pilsners, Lagers, Kolsch's, Cream Ale's, and Blonde's:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3.0 g. CaCl2 (as the dihydrate), or 2.25 g. (anhydrous)

For IPA's:
------------
6.00 g. CaSO4
1.00 g. CaCl2 (as the dihydrate), or 0.75 g. (anhydrous)
2.00 g. NaCl

For NEIPA's:
----------------
2.50 g. CaSO4
4.50 g. CaCl2 (as the dihydrate), or 3.40 g. (anhydrous)
2.00 g. NaCl

For most other styles I use this basic blend:
----------------------------------------------------------
1.75 g. CaSO4
2.75 g. CaCl2 (as the dihydrate), or 2.10 g. (anhydrous)
1.00 g. NaCl

All of these additions being for every 5 gallons of RO, both strike and sparge.

I then use 88% Lactic Acid or Baking Soda to adjust mash pH (do not add these to RO sparge water)

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

 

[ajdelange]

Given your starting water, I'm not fully confident that your RO will be as fantastic as A.J. claims it will be.

Those numbers didn't represent claims but simple statements to the effect that if he has 100 mg/L of some ion and passes that through a membrane specced for 99% rejection he should expect only 1% to pass through: 1 mg/L. Are you questioning the validity of the manufacturers' specs or suggesting that some practical limitations associated with installing a 99% rated membrane would limit its ability to deliver its rated performance? Or ?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Those numbers didn't represent claims but simple statements to the effect that if he has 100 mg/L of some ion and passes that through a membrane specced for 99% rejection he should expect only 1% to pass through: 1 mg/L. Are you questioning the validity of the manufacturers' specs or suggesting that some practical limitations associated with installing a 99% rated membrane would limit its ability to deliver its rated performance? Or ?

I'm judging it on my own homes under the sink RO unit and some terrible well water that is softened. My RO unit is at the lower end of the cost spectrum though, and I probably got what I paid for. My well water actually makes the OP's look good by comparison. My RO weighs in at about 60-70 TDS on fresh filters. Hard to gauge accurately as TDS for my case, as I have a uS meter. From memory: Well water is about 1,260 uS. Softened is about 1,280 uS. RO is about 94 uS.

 

[ajdelange]

You change the number in the box and see how it changes the water profile. Is this the only way to go about this, or are there any online calculators that will analyze you current and intended water profile and calculate for you exactly what to add?

Yes, there is an approach that will automate the process for you. The first thing you need to do is obtain a spreadsheet that accurately tells you how much of each ion is found in water which is a blend of water's at their actual pH's at a pH you are interested in. Then you need a meaningful target i.e. one that at least electrically balances at a pH of interest. You now take the logs of the computed sodium ion concentration and subtract it from the log of the desired ion concentration and add that to the differences in the logs of any other ions you care about. You can weight the ion differences if, for example, you care much more about getting sodium to match your profile than potassium. You now fiddle with salt and dilution water additions to minimize the sum of the differences. Or rather, in Excel employ the Solver (found under the Tools menu) to do that automatically. If the target is realizable then you should be able to hit it much more closely (fraction of a percent error in each ion) than you can fiddling manually. One of the reasons you can't match Brun water profiles is that they electrically balance at pH 8.3. which isn't generally a pH of interest to us as brewers.

Yes, there are spreadsheets that do all the above such as the one I have evolved over the years. I don't offer it because it is much too complicated for the average use and isn't, in terms of the user interface, really ready for prime time television. But I don't refuse to give it to anyone who might want it nevertheless.

The main reason I don't promulgate it is that matching profiles really doesn't matter! It is almost always sufficient to be in the general ballpark. Our palates and most other things in nature respond proportionally to the logs of stimuli and not to the stimuli themselves. This is why a good program that prescribes salt additions will use the logs of the errors rather than the errors themselves.

Yes, I'm that lazy sometimes.

Ginning up this spreadsheet was a lot of fun (and most of it done whilst lying by the pool on the island of Mauritius in January) but I never use it any more except to try to help others trying to implement matching algorithms. It really isn't necessary. Add half a gram of calcium chloride to each gallon of RO water treated and trim to taste (e.g. see if you think some sulfate makes the beer taste better) is 99% of the path to success in brewing water. You're more likely to wind up with a beer you like that way than adhering to some profile though, of course, you can always take a profile and trim to taste from that.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm judging it on my own homes under the sink RO unit and some terrible well water that is softened. My RO unit is at the lower end of the cost spectrum though, and you might get what you pay for. My well water actually makes the OP's look good by comparison. My RO weighs in at about 70 TDS on fresh filters. Hard to gauge accurately as TDS for my case, as I have a uS meter. Well water is about 1,260 uS. RO is about 115 uS.

You are only getting 90% rejection which is terrible. Time for new membranes. 70/1260 --> 94% rejection. You must be buying 95% membranes. They are, of course, cheaper. OP can't really afford that level of rejection as his water is so heavy laden. The bloke from Buckeye Hydro often pops in on discussions like this one and is a sponsor (I believe) so you should be able to find him. He can advise and supply the membranes (and systems).

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I went to my notes, and uS for the RO hovers around 94. Still not all that good. When I replace the filters, I will request 99% filters.

 

[The_Bishop]

Is your RO system the one that has casings with replaceable filters/elements, or one of those 'encapsulated' element designs that has the 'encapsulated' filters that is connected by quick-connects? In other words is it this:

Or this:

If it's the second one, those 'systems' are 99% of the time, junk.

Also, water pressure and back pressure on the membrane have a lot to do with rejection rate. So does the frequency of regeneration. The higher the feed pressure, the better the membrane functions. However, if you're using a pressurized storage tank, as the tank pressure rises it creates back pressure on the membrane that reduces it's effectiveness and lowers it's rejection rate.

If your feed water is chlorinated you need good quality activated carbon filters to remove/reduce the chlorine as the chlorine will destroy the membrane.

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

My RO system is like the first one. Also, the water isn't chlorinated. I think at just time to replace all the membranes and filters. In the mean time, would it help to pre boil my raw well water and then cool it and decant it off the precipitate? I know that would cut down on the calcium, but how would that affect the alkalinity of ththe water?

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

I've been doing quite a bit of research on water profiles over the last few days. Obviously, the best course of action is to get my RO system operational and build my water up from their. But, What I've discovered is that outside of the alkalinity of my raw well water, it's pretty decent for brewing. I think I can work around that by adding acid to the mash and sparge water to bring it into the proper ph range. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but is this an acceptable plan until my RO system is up and going?

Edit: Also, the only acid I have on hand is a citric/malic/tartaric blend that came in a wine making kit. Using bru'n water, I calculated that I would need about 15g in my 5.5 gallon recipe to bring the mash and sparge ph down to 5.5. Do y'all think 15g of this acid will impart any unwanted flavors into the beer?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I can't say I've ever tried wine acid blend in beer, so I can't give a good answer here, but I would not assume it to be beneficial, else many others would be recommending it.

Yes you can acidify your unsoftened well water. Phosphoric Acid would be the first choice for assured flavor neutrality, and Lactic Acid would be a fine choice, with some potential for flavor enhancement or detriment (depending on if you like it, and the style being brewed) given the levels of it that you will require.

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

 

[mabrungard]

Edit: Also, the only acid I have on hand is a citric/malic/tartaric blend that came in a wine making kit. Using bru'n water, I calculated that I would need about 15g in my 5.5 gallon recipe to bring the mash and sparge ph down to 5.5. Do y'all think 15g of this acid will impart any unwanted flavors into the beer?

How in the world are you using Bru'n Water to guide you with acid blend use? Unless you know the exact proportions of the various acids, it would be difficult to estimate a proper dose. In addition, I have found that the proportion differs from vendor to vendor.

With respect to flavor impacts, the acids in acid blend are pretty flavorful and could affect beer flavor at some point. The good thing is that the combination might avoid any one of those acids from standing out.

Are you located so far out that the internet doesn't work for you and you can't order a bottle of lactic or phosphoric acid? That's pretty far out, man!!

 

[ajdelange]

You've got Total alkalinity CaCO3 395 ppm = 7.9 mEq/L. That's whopping alkalinity. More than you would want to neutralize with any acid except phosphoric and I'm not sure you'd want to do it even with phosphoric. You've also got Calcium, Ca 128 ppm = 6.4 mEq/L. Augment that to 7.9 by adding 1.5 mEq of calcium as 129 mg of gypsum for each liter of water (mash and sparge). Now boil the water for a few minutes. It will turn milky a bit before the boil commences. Shut off the heat, let it cool and stand over night. In the morning decant the clear water being careful not to disturb the layer of powder on the bottom of the vessel. This water will have about 20 -40 mg/L calcium with sulfate at about 108 mg/L (OK for many ales - if you like sulfate) but the alkalinity should be down to 50 to 100. That level you can neutralize with acid.

Citric acid used to be commonly recommended for home brewing. The problem with it, of course, is its flavor. Malic acid is known for its harshess to the extent that many vintners do a second fermentation to convert it to lactic acid. If you use enough sauermalz and are successful in decarbonating by boiling you should be able to avoid having to use acid at all. But to determine whether you can get away without it or not you really need a pH meter.

 

[mabrungard]

If it's the second one, those 'systems' are 99% of the time, junk.

Well, that might be a slight overstatement. But it has some basis in truth. The real problem is that those teeny sediment and carbon filters in that second system are too small and will rapidly be exhausted. I strongly recommend that brewers select the first type of RO system with the larger filters.

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

How in the world are you using Bru'n Water to guide you with acid blend use? Unless you know the exact proportions of the various acids, it would be difficult to estimate a proper dose. In addition, I have found that the proportion differs from vendor to vendor.

With respect to flavor impacts, the acids in acid blend are pretty flavorful and could affect beer flavor at some point. The good thing is that the combination might avoid any one of those acids from standing out.

Are you located so far out that the internet doesn't work for you and you can't order a bottle of lactic or phosphoric acid? That's pretty far out, man!!

I looked up the manufacture of this acid blend to get the proportions and estimated it based on that. I definitely can order off the internet, but I'm wanting to brew today, and there is no local supplier of acid.

 

[ajdelange]

There's a bit more to it than the relative proportions. The three acids deliver different amounts of protons per molecule at mash pH with Citric giving you about 1 - 3/4, malic about 1 - 1/2 and tartaric about 2.

[Edit]
More precisely, at pH 5.4
citric(5.4) = 1.90304
malic(5.4) = 1.60692
tartaric(5.4) = 1.90855

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

Gotcha. So I'm just going to brew with my water like I have been. When the RO system is back online, then I'll start using it and building my water. So far, the few brews I've done taste good, I just want them to be the best they can be.

 

[JonesCreek]

My raw well water for my house sits right around 650ppm of TDS, after my green sand filter it lowers it to about 500, and after the RO system it drops it down to 20 ppm TDS. I am not sure how you would have it plumbed in but it is important to always keep pressure on the RO membrane because if you don't the water will go back through the membrane and ruin it much faster than normal.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Feel free to give us a call when you are in front of your RO system and we can do some quick troubleshooting and figure out what is wrong with the system.

Russ
513-312-2343

 

[ajdelange]

I am not sure how you would have it plumbed in but it is important to always keep pressure on the RO membrane because if you don't the water will go back through the membrane and ruin it much faster than normal.

I'll note that my system does not keep pressure on the feed side when it is not running. It simply shuts off the feed and the pressure quickly drops to 0. Now I'll note that the permeate goes to an atmospheric tank. Some permeate will move, by osmotic pressure, back into the feed channel but as soon as the feed channel is dilute enough that stops.

Now if my permeate were fed to a bladder tank the story would be a bit different. The high pressure in the bladder tank would force water back through the membrane, down the feed channel and out the drain. Whether that would damage the membrane or not I do not know but can imagine that it might. That aside, a good proportion of my pressure tank's content would wind up in the sewer. That's why systems feeding pressurized tanks are equipped with check valves!

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Well, that might be a slight overstatement. But it has some basis in truth. The real problem is that those teeny sediment and carbon filters in that second system are too small and will rapidly be exhausted. I strongly recommend that brewers select the first type of RO system with the larger filters.

The second type, with the small encapsulated filters really involves a misapplication of the filters - they are not designed/intended to be used in this way. Vendors know that a low initial purchase price will entice uneducated (usually first-time) RO system buyers.

We have all the pieces/parts in house to build those systems, but we never have, and have no plans to start.

Russ

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

The high pressure in the bladder tank would force water back through the membrane, down the feed channel and out the drain. Whether that would damage the membrane or not I do not know

Yes - it sure will damage (as in, ruin) the membrane.

Russ

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

There should always be a check valve in/at/near the permeate port on the RO membrane housing to prevent this backwards flow.