Calling on the HBT community’s help with first clone!

[DonGavlar]

Hi guys,

I will soon be attempting my first ever self made clone and thought rather than attempt it all on my own, I’d call upon you lovely brewers to help me out! My mrs father loves this beer and has put me up to the challenge of cloning it, so the stakes are high.


The beer in question is an english beer from the rebellion brewery in Marlow, England. ( https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/9011/28816/?ba=Globetrotter )

On the back of the bottle it states “Complex malt and hop character. A blend of crystal and roasted malts gives a richness to the beer, which is balanced by citrus and fruit flavours derived from adding goldlings, fuggles and cascade hops.”

So we already know the hops used, now I need to figure the hop schedule and grain bill. The beer pours beautifully clear, very malty taste, deep red colour, citrus finish, absolutely no harsh bitterness, very smooth. It seems to be a mix of your traditional English bitter and a red ale. Very low carbonation.

I was thinking of making use of FWH to get that smoothness followed by late hop additions for the citrus finish. As for the base I was thinking MO and the redness, carared?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, really want to nail this one. I appreciate most people here are US based so would never of even heard of the brewery let alone the beer, but im sure alot of you have a lot more experience in brewing this style of beer than me.

 

[NTexBrewer]

https://www.rebellionbeer.co.uk/beers/full-beer-range/red-bottle.aspx

On their website they say they use 10% Crystal Malt and Marris Otter. They do not list specifically what type of Crystal Malt though.

It never hurts to send an email to the brewery for more information.

 

[Smellyglove]

I'd shoot for a dark crystal, like 275 EBC from thomas fawcett (is it?). I'd say it's important to use british crystal malt, as they often have a nice silkyness and caramelly-thing going on.

Or a lighter crystal, like 150 EBC and add a pinch of roasted barley.

 

[DonGavlar]

I'd shoot for a dark crystal, like 275 EBC from thomas fawcett (is it?). I'd say it's important to use british crystal malt, as they often have a nice silkyness and caramelly-thing going on.

Or a lighter crystal, like 150 EBC and add a pinch of roasted barley.

You mean to hit that dark red colour? But yeah you are right, it does have that british silkyness, probably better off keeping the grain bill british.

Yeah i think a mix of a darker and a medium crystal with some barley could get me too that level of red. Maybe 120/40L mix?

 

[Staylow]

They mention roast. I bet the majority of the red color, and hint of roast in the flavor comes from 2-4% roasted barley. A MO base, and 5-6% medium english crystal (60-80L) would get you in the ball park. Probably bittered with EKG. Fuggles leaves a pretty harsh bitterness when used early, in my experience.

 

[Smellyglove]

You mean to hit that dark red colour? But yeah you are right, it does have that british silkyness, probably better off keeping the grain bill british.

Yeah i think a mix of a darker and a medium crystal with some barley could get me too that level of red. Maybe 120/40L mix?

I sort of blended your post, where you quoted that they use crystal malts and roast, with NtexBrewers post, where he quoted that they use MO and only crystal.

For a grist without roast, you'd need the higher EBC crystal. For a grist with roast you could go lower on the EBC and just add a touch of roast for the color.

You could pull this off by just using one crystal and the roasted barley.

I myself like to go very simple at first, and for a potential second batch, blend in some more fore layering if you feel you're lacking something.

 

[Smellyglove]

But also it's about process. For a smooth and malty take I'd see if you could do a no sparge, which gives you a very high quality malty wort. Or maybe boil it down. I do no sparge my self in my current setup, I don't know if there's a difference between no sparge and boiling it down. But from my experience at least no sparge has given me a bit smoother and a tad more maltier beers, comparing to te 3 vessel system I had before. If the quality of wort is as high as it gets, I guess that's a better starting point.

 

[DonGavlar]

Thanks for all the replys guys.

So far I’ve come up with this..
90 min boil
89% Marris otter (TF)
10% dark crystal (120) (crisp)
1% roasted barley (610) (crisp)
0.5oz First Gold (90 min First wort hop)
0.5oz EKG (10min)
0.5oz EKG (5min)
0.5oz cascade (0 mins)
WLP002

This gives me a est abv of 4.4% (original beer is 4.5)
IBU 25 (original unknown, I expect around the 20-25 range)
SRM 16, nice reddish colour on beersmith.

What do you guys think?

 

[NTexBrewer]

I don’t know much about FWHopping so I can’t comment on that.

Rebellion mentions using a hopback for the cascade hops. I would consider chilling the wort to 170ish and whirlpool the cascade hops for 15 minutes. Then cool down to pitching temp.

Do this instead of the flameout addition

 

[DonGavlar]

I don’t know much about FWHopping so I can’t comment on that.

Rebellion mentions using a hopback for the cascade hops. I would consider chilling the wort to 170ish and whirlpool the cascade hops for 15 minutes. Then cool down to pitching temp.

Do this instead of the flameout addition

Ive been meaning to try a whirlpool hop addition. The thing that stops me is that im a huge clarity freak and it worrys me that if im adding an extra 15 mins onto my cooling time, I may end up with a cloudy beer. Is this just not the case?

Thanks for the input, any thoughts on the grain bill/ rest of the hop schedule? With FW hopping i just find it takes the harsh bitter bite off, leaves a nice smooth bitterness.

 

[NTexBrewer]

Ive been meaning to try a whirlpool hop addition. The thing that stops me is that im a huge clarity freak and it worrys me that if im adding an extra 15 mins onto my cooling time, I may end up with a cloudy beer. Is this just not the case?

Thanks for the input, any thoughts on the grain bill/ rest of the hop schedule? With FW hopping i just find it takes the harsh bitter bite off, leaves a nice smooth bitterness.

When I was googling Irish red recipes they were pretty much MO, one or two crystal malts, usually Thomas Fawcett and a little roasted barely so I think you are going in the right direction. I think 25IBU is a good range also.

I have a single vessel, electric, recirculating BIAB system so I never fear some trub or cold break going into the fermenter. I use whirlflock during the boil and then cold crash and use gelatin fining if I want a clear beer.