It’s hard to locate a topic on this forum about my question. So my apologies for that. Anyway, I being less experienced am faced with making an IPA recipe using either extract (Breiss) or Rahr two row malted grain. A bit technical of a question I guess, but does anyone have insight into whether this makes a big difference in the final taste (assuming of course it is brewed correctly and all other hip and yeast additions, water, are the same? This is for a 5 gallon batch with basic equipment. Thanks
Breiss malt extract vs Rahr two row
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BrewnWKopperKat
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Brewed correctly (with an appropriately adjusted recipe for the extract batch), you should end up with two enjoyable beers. It is very likely that they will taste different.
When using liquid malt extract (LME) make sure it's very, very fresh. Cans of LME are stored on the shelf, not refrigerated, their freshness goes down fast after filling (similar to honey getting darker with time, but faster, more damaging flavor-wise). Some LHBS will bulk fill from large drums, so definitely check the date.
Correctly stored dry malt extract (DME), from a sealed bag or bulk filled then sealed, fares much better with time, even many years.
Correctly stored dry malt extract (DME), from a sealed bag or bulk filled then sealed, fares much better with time, even many years.
Thanks for the input. I guess it is good to ask the supplier how fresh the LME is before ordering. This is a recipe from Northern brewer that I wanted to try- I can go all grain but was looking for something easy at the moment- worried about too much caramel backbone from the LME - wish I could find LME extract from the Rahr two row
Don't boil (all) the extract (LME or DME) for an hour. Especially if you boil a smaller volume with top up in the fermenter.
If you do full volume boils, boiling half the extract is plenty, you could boil even less. Then add the remainder at 5' or FO. It only needs to be pasteurized (10-15' at 170-160F), it's been boiled already (and then some when condensing) at the maltsters.
There are not many malsters that make extract. Briess may well be the only one in the U.S. Muntons (U.K.) is another one, never used their extracts, though.
Before I went all grain I brewed very decent IPAs from extract, both fresh poured LME from Annapolis Homebrew, dispensed from 30 gallon barrels, as well as from all DME (Briess).
Maryland Homebrew has been pouring from LME barrels the last few years too. They go through a lot, so it must be fairly fresh. Just check the date.
I'm not sure Annapolis Homebrew (in Severna Park) still pours from LME barrels, there was a change of ownership/operation a few years ago, haven't been back there since. I don't know about other LHBS's and what they sell.
Online orders of LME, I'm not sure what the quality is.
Or just go all DME.
Or mash 10-12 pounds of 2-row, with some light Caramel malt (1 lb C10 or C20), and substitute some Wheat (1-2 lbs) for 2-row if you want.
Mashing and lautering takes a good extra hour though...
BrewnWKopperKat
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It seems like the "low risk" option would be to brew the "all-grain" kit. It will take a little more time during the brew day. But if you consider the amount of time it will take to verify a good extract-based recipe (plus the uncertainty of the LME quality), it may be "safer" to spend a little more time on brew day with the "all-grain" recipe.
That said, given a set of extract kit instructions, there are a number of people here who can offer advice on how to customize the kit.
eta: changes for clarifications
Thank you , those are very good suggestions/information. I forgot that LME is already boiled - that can cut down on time. I can check with a few local LHBS to ask how fresh the LME is. Interesting that Breiss is the only LME but not surprising.Don't boil (all) the extract (LME or DME) for an hour. Especially if you boil a smaller volume with top up in the fermenter.
If you do full volume boils, boiling half the extract is plenty, you could boil even less. Then add the remainder at 5' or FO. It only needs to be pasteurized (10-15' at 170-160F), it's been boiled already (and then some when condensing) at the maltsters.
There are not many malsters that make extract. Briess may well be the only one in the U.S. Muntons (U.K.) is another one, never used their extracts, though.
Before I went all grain I brewed very decent IPAs from extract, both fresh poured LME from Annapolis Homebrew, dispensed from 30 gallon barrels, as well as from all DME (Briess).
Maryland Homebrew has been pouring from LME barrels the last few years too. They go through a lot, so it must be fairly fresh. Just check the date.
I'm not sure Annapolis Homebrew (in Severna Park) still pours from LME barrels, there was a change of ownership/operation a few years ago, haven't been back there since. I don't know about other LHBS's and what they sell.
Online orders of LME, I'm not sure what the quality is.
Or just go all DME.
Or mash 10-12 pounds of 2-row, with some light Caramel malt (1 lb C10 or C20), and substitute some Wheat (1-2 lbs) for 2-row if you want.
Mashing and lautering takes a good extra hour though...
I will incorporate those pointers on LME into my boil - thank you.
then I may just repeat it with the all grain to see.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Any idea as to where Williams Brewing gets some of their LMEs (for example, their Nut Brown extract [link])?
DME has also been boiled, it's derived from LME, in a subsequent step. It's "vacuum evaporated" into a dry powder. In the U.K. they call DME "spray malt," which hints to the process used.
That's why extracts (liquid or dry) don't need to be boiled, unless you want to create more caramelization for some added character or even more severe, such as in Scottish Ales and Barleywines.
Thank you for that information. I suppose I should have realized the flavor aspect long ago but just recently thought about it, since a lot of beers I taste seem to have a little too much caramel flavor (for me at least). It is nice to know that boiling is not needed when using extracts. That can really cut down on brewing time for using extracts.
I mis-understood initially - Breiss seems to be the only brand (?) from which LME and DME are made. There are different types of extract of course. Why only Breiss and not others? just curious.
Of course the larger point is to use all grain in brewing if you want to get a better flavor profile; there are many more options for grain than from extract (it seems).
I mis-understood initially - Breiss seems to be the only brand (?) from which LME and DME are made. There are different types of extract of course. Why only Breiss and not others? just curious.
Of course the larger point is to use all grain in brewing if you want to get a better flavor profile; there are many more options for grain than from extract (it seems).
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BrewnWKopperKat
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That idea has been around for a while (two examples):
- Dec 2010: 15 Minute Cascade Pale Ale.
- Dec 2019: No-Boil Recipes! New for 2019!
BrewnWKopperKat
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Williams Brewing has a series of "style" specific extracts (for example, their Nut Brown extract [link]). It would be good to know (not speculate, know) who makes these before repeating that assumption.
eta: there are also brands (Muntons and Coopers) in other regions.
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BrewnWKopperKat
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In the early 2020s, there seems to be a trend towards
"extract" and "all-grain"
rather than "extract" or "all-grain".
Seems like common sense to me. Use the strengths of an ingredient to ones advantage.
They seem to be specially made, maybe just for Williams.
Let's not forget, many "kit and kilo" kits include a can of liquid extract, including pre-hopped extracts. There's a large variety of those, for all sorts of beer styles and specific flavors.
Given the specialized equipment needed for (vacuum) evaporation and packaging, there must be manufacturers around that make those. Coopers is a large one that comes to mind:
https://www.homebrewing.org/Flavored-Extract-Cans_c_220.html
There maybe smaller, boutique style extract makers around...
You can use a fairly neutral extract, such as Briess' Pilsen Light or Golden Light, and use steeping grains to create the flavor profile you desire. You can brew 100s of beer styles that way.
It's when you get into large adjunct percentages that you need to mash. For example the large amount of raw or flaked wheat needed in Belgian Wits, or raw or flaked corn in Cream Ales and Macro type lagers, etc., where extract comes up short. Even a partial mash won't suffice for those, as you need all the diastatic power you can get (from malted Barley) to convert those large percentages of adjuncts.
Alternately you can now (the past 6 years or so) buy Wheat DME (65% wheat malt, 35% barley malt) for your Hefeweizens, and Munich DME for your Oktoberfests or Bock Beers. Much more variety available now in good extracts than 10 years ago.
https://www.brewingwithbriess.com/products/extracts/
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BrewnWKopperKat
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With regard to various styles of DME, How to Brew, 4e has some recipes that use either Vienna DME or Munich DME. At the time the book was published, these DMEs were available from Briess.
I haven't been able to order these DMEs for a while (and they are currently not listed on Briess's web site). Before ordering these items, it may be appropriate to talk with your local / online homebrew store about the current status of these items.
For those who are considering converting those recipes into partial mash, IIRC, Munich DME was 50% Bonlander &50% Brewers Malt.
I haven't been able to order these DMEs for a while (and they are currently not listed on Briess's web site). Before ordering these items, it may be appropriate to talk with your local / online homebrew store about the current status of these items.
For those who are considering converting those recipes into partial mash, IIRC, Munich DME was 50% Bonlander &50% Brewers Malt.
Steveruch
Well-Known Member
That's true.
BrewnWKopperKat
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In the world of "kit and kilo", this [ link to youtube video] is "new to me".
In a different homebrewing forum, there was a recent question from someone who had a couple of these kits that were five years old...
In a different homebrewing forum, there was a recent question from someone who had a couple of these kits that were five years old...
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