Bottle conditioning super high gravity homebrew

[Fermentophile]

Hi all, I'm looking into brewing a super high gravity ale in the near future, something like Dogfish Head's World Wide Stout or 120 minute IPA. The alcohol lever will be 16-20% by the time it's done, and I would really prefer to bottle-condition the beer as I do with every other one I've made so far.

I see that in a lot of the recipes for WWS and 120 min IPA the beer is either force carbonated or it's left in carbonated. My question is, is there a way to try and carbonate a beer this big through bottle-conditioning? After a month or two in secondary and abusing the original yeast so much, will the yeast still he able to carbonate the beer if I just add priming sugar? I'm planning on using WLP099, pitching about a week in when i start feeding the fermenter with dextrose or wort. Ill be using well as another strain to start it off, don't know which one as I don't have a recipe mapped out yet...

Would it help to pitch a new starter if WLP099 before bottling? If so does anyone have any tips?

Appreciate the help! Thanks!

 

[Revvy]

You add fresh yeast along with your sugar at bottling time. Folks usually add about a 3rd packet of dry.

 

[Fermentophile]

Hi Revvy, I don't think adding dry yeast to a 16-20% beer along with priming sugar at bottling will work. US-04 or Nottingham yeast will probably die instantly if I add it in dry to a beer that's a fifth alcohol... I have added EC-1118 champagne yeast to bottle my 12% ABV beers at bottling and that works well, but I don't think even that will work for a beer thus big. Is there another dry or liquid yeast you would recommend?

Anything else I can do to give this yeast a good chance of carbonating? Maybe making a well aerated starter ( not aerating the beer, just the starter)? Any advice would be great!

 

[Beezy]

You would probably have to force carb in a keg and then bottle from there when it's that high.

 

[dmckean44]

I think you use dry champagne yeast to bottle when the gravity is that high.

 

[foltster]

If you are approaching the limit of your yeasts alcohol limits, it is going to be difficult to naturally carbonate a beer like this.

 

[Fermentophile]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I looked up EC-1118 champagne yeast's alcohol tolerance and it is listed as 18% so that may work on a 16% beer to carbonate it if I rehydrate the yeast with some nutrients...

I'll be using WLP099 for this beer, but it will be in secondary for up to a month and even this yeast probably won't be in good shape after fermenting up to 20%. The alcohol tolerance of this yeast is listed as 25%, so what if I make a 2-3 L starter with fresh WLP099, and feed the starter in steps to get the starter up to maybe 16% ABV before throwing it into the bottling bucket right before bottling?

I can use Kaiser's calculations for krausening to make sure the amount of sugar still in the starter at pitching time is exactly what I need to carbonate the beer and not too much. Anyone think this may work?

 

[Calder]

I don't know what your experience is, but if you are relatively new to brewing, I think taking on a 16-20% beer is probably too much. I hope that with the '16-20%' is from just formulating the recipe; if it's a guess at the outcome, I would bet you will get stuck around 10-12%.

Assuming you know what you are doing. I would just make a small starter of WLP099. If you rack to secondary, you could take a couple of tablespoons of the slurry and make a starter. Starter should be around 1.040. Make sure the starter is active when pitching to the bottling bucket (can add some sugar to get it going a day before), and add with the priming sugar. The yeast is more tolerant of alcohol than most wine yeasts.

 

[Fermentophile]

Thanks for the info, Calder. I haven't been brewing too long, but the smallest beer I've ever made is one I'm making now, a 90 minute IPA at 9.5%. The rest of me beers have been 11-12% so far with no problems whatsoever. I only buy strong beers like this when I'm buying, so I figure I'll only make that kind of beer!

I will make a beer at about 1.055 OG only to have a cake to rack the initial wort onto for this big one. I'm looking months ahead here as well, so I will have a few more 10-13% brews under my belt by then. I'm looking for advice on how to carbonate this big beer, since I'm pretty confident I can get this to finish without stalling, I just really would like to bottle condition it and am willing to give it a go.

Thanks for the advice, I'll have to post a log of how it goes!

 

[Golddiggie]

Using the WLP099 should still have enough yeast in suspension, even after a month in another vessel (why are you looking to do that? Are you aging on oak or something?). It might take it significantly longer than 3 weeks at 70F to carbonate, so be patient with it.

Of course, if you want a pretty much guarantee that it will be carbonated, in 3 weeks, then put it into a corny keg and put it under pressure. You can carbonate at cellar temperatures, so you don't need to setup a keezer for this. Once it's carbonated to your liking, you can then bottle it from the keg. There are force carbonation charts online that list all the way up to 65F for the brew temperature. I've been doing that to carbonate a batch of hard cider (~4 gallons) since I didn't want to risk it not carbonate in bottles (or get bombs) and my brew fridge isn't setup for 5 gallon kegs (2.5 and 3 gallon only). I'll be filling a few bottles in the morning to take with me for turkey day...

IMO, you always have more than one method for obtaining your desired end result. It all comes down to which one you select. While I understand the desire to bottle carbonate batches. I think you should also consider the danger points in trying to do so with a batch that could be in the 20% area. I wouldn't pitch a starter into the bottling bucket, since that will dilute the brew. IF you cold crash the starter and pitch JUST the slurry, that could be ok. But, you'll need to mix it really well with the priming solution and the rest of the brew before bottling it up. You risk oxidation there, among other things. If you're going to invest all that time, energy, and funds (is this extract or all grain?) then don't you want to minimize risk at the end?

 

[bighorn_brew]

have you used that wl-099? I tried it on a super high abv and beer never really did come together, but that was a long time ago,,,,I actually had better luck with ec-1118 in my barleywines...but, again, I only used it once, and I've come along way since then...YMMV

 

[Fermentophile]

So far I haven't decided on any recipe yet, I'm trying to work out the logistics of brewing a beer like this from start to finish before I think about a grain bill and oak. I will be doing all grain, same as all my batches. I think doing this with extract it would be very hard to get it down to a FG that wouldn't taste too sweet. I'm sure I'll add sugar and I'll be mashing low, but I need to do more research on this project.

I've heard the WLP009 can be hard to work with even if you do all the things suggested by White Labs. The olive oil experiment that I have seen some people try seems promising, and I may be able to get access to a microgram scale spot may be a possibility... The carbonation issue is one I ran into right away since I can't see myself buying a carbonation setup anytime soon, I even use my 3 gallon keg as a cask with no regrets! Tip 'er on the side, dispense through the gas in hole and you better finish it in 1-2 weeks!

If anyone has any other advice on a project like this that would be great! Thanks everyone!

 

[seabass07]

The olive oil definitely won't hurt and might help. I've had good luck using it with big beers, but I also haven't tried without it, so it's just piece of mind. But just sterilize a straightened paperclip with a lighter, dip the tip in olive oil and then stir it into the wort. It will be plenty without the craziness of measuring out such a small amount. Such a small amount should not mess with head retention.

I think the hard part will be knowing when to stop feeding. One feeding after the yeast have crapped out and you are stuck with an overly sweet beer.

Some friends and I are thinking of doing a DFH 120 clone and aging it in an 8 gallon whiskey barrel. It's quite an undertaking!

 

[hungupdown]

So far I haven't decided on any recipe yet, I'm trying to work out the logistics of brewing a beer like this from start to finish before I think about a grain bill and oak. I will be doing all grain, same as all my batches. I think doing this with extract it would be very hard to get it down to a FG that wouldn't taste too sweet. I'm sure I'll add sugar and I'll be mashing low, but I need to do more research on this project.

I've heard the WLP009 can be hard to work with even if you do all the things suggested by White Labs. The olive oil experiment that I have seen some people try seems promising, and I may be able to get access to a microgram scale spot may be a possibility... The carbonation issue is one I ran into right away since I can't see myself buying a carbonation setup anytime soon, I even use my 3 gallon keg as a cask with no regrets! Tip 'er on the side, dispense through the gas in hole and you better finish it in 1-2 weeks!

If anyone has any other advice on a project like this that would be great! Thanks everyone!

Know this is an old thread, but I'm in same position with a 16% RIS, so wondering if you ever found a successfull method?

I'd secondary fermented for 8 weeks, so don't think there'll be much yeast left.
Thought it was still worth a trying, with just priming sugar (dextrose), but no pressure after 2 weeks.

Backup plan was to use pack of Lallemand CBC-1 I have. But just looked at Lallemand info, and it says to 18% for primary fermentation, but only to 14% for bottle conditioning.

So maybe I need a CBC-1 bottling primer, for the yeast to become alcohol tolerant.
Question is what ABV should I target, before priming?

The primary ferment used a Nottingham cake from previous 4.5% beer. Following the advise, that using yeast cake from a low ABV beer, the yeast is less stressed, and able to tackle high OG 1104 (equivalent OG1149 after gradual dextrose additions of 1100g).
So wondering if 5% starter, is worth trying.

Now wishing I'd kept some of the Notty' back (from primary, in fridge).

 

[mac_1103]

So maybe I need a CBC-1 bottling primer, for the yeast to become alcohol tolerant.

Not sure that's how it works. The lower alcohol tolerance in bottles might be due to the pressure. Maybe try EC-1118?

 

[hungupdown]

Not sure that's how it works. The lower alcohol tolerance in bottles might be due to the pressure. Maybe try EC-1118?

Thanks, maybe pressure is an issue to consider.

I'd meant to add, that my 20L RIS is somewhere between 15.3% ABV (going by corrected refractometer/brix FG of 1023), and 18% ABV (going off hydrometer FG 1010). Not sure why the discrepancy, but might be to do with it being viscous and clingy (high surface tension).

EC-1118 datasheet says its good up to 16% ABV.
So I suspect EC-1118, might also not get going, without some nurturing.

Just came an article on the KRÄUSENING (MIT SPEISE) method. Advanced Bottle conditioning
"In Germany, brewers add a portion of fermenting beer to the finished beer. The process is called ‘kräusening’ in that you are taking part of an actively fermenting batch at high kräusen and adding it to a finished batch. This not only provides the sugar for carbonation but also the yeast".

Next time, I'll probably try adapting that method. At transfer to secondary, I'll retain some RIS with plenty Nottingham yeast, in a demijohn, to continue fermenting with added DME /LME & water & oxygen, while the secondary cleans up.
I'd then have active, alcohol tolerant yeast, ready for botteling.

For now,, have set a CBC-1 starter going. 5g; in 500ml with DME & sucrose, target 6%, and will add more sucrose to target 10%, before pitching. - unless any better advice comes along.

 

[mac_1103]

EC-1118 datasheet says its good up to 16% ABV.

Actually it says up to 18%.

 

[hungupdown]

Actually it says up to 18%.

Correct! Well spotted, EC-1118 data says to18%.

 

[hungupdown]

Correct! Well spotted, EC-1118 data says to18%.

Thanks, maybe pressure is an issue to consider.

I'd meant to add, that my 20L RIS is somewhere between 15.3% ABV (going by corrected refractometer/brix FG of 1023), and 18% ABV (going off hydrometer FG 1010). Not sure why the discrepancy, but might be to do with it being viscous and clingy (high surface tension).

EC-1118 datasheet says its good up to 16% ABV.
So I suspect EC-1118, might also not get going, without some nurturing.

Just came an article on the KRÄUSENING (MIT SPEISE) method. Advanced Bottle conditioning
"In Germany, brewers add a portion of fermenting beer to the finished beer. The process is called ‘kräusening’ in that you are taking part of an actively fermenting batch at high kräusen and adding it to a finished batch. This not only provides the sugar for carbonation but also the yeast".

Next time, I'll probably try adapting that method. At transfer to secondary, I'll retain some RIS with plenty Nottingham yeast, in a demijohn, to continue fermenting with added DME /LME & water & oxygen, while the secondary cleans up.
I'd then have active, alcohol tolerant yeast, ready for botteling.

For now,, have set a CBC-1 starter going. 5g; in 500ml with DME & sucrose, target 6%, and will add more sucrose to target 10%, before pitching. - unless any better advice comes along.

Yeast slurry from the CBC-1 starter, worked OK.
Test in small PET pressure bottle, was firm after about a week.

Starter ended up being 550ml, inc 100g DME, 15g yeast. With total 200g sucrose, gradually added 50g at a time, over 10 days.

Fermented to 11%. Then in fridge overnight. 3g of yeast slurry per litre, used for priming.
Slurry added to bottles individually, rather than emptying, to prime whole batch, then refilling.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

• https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/products/lalbrew-cbc-1/
• https://admin.lallemandbrewing.com/...23/05/TDS_LPS_BREWINGYEAST_CBC-1_ENG_A4-5.pdf
• https://admin.lallemandbrewing.com/...ctices-Bottle_conditioning_-_printbleed-5.pdf

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Back on Feb 29th (sorry, I missed this earlier)

For now,, have set a CBC-1 starter going. 5g; in 500ml with DME & sucrose

As I understand it, CBC-1 only ferments simple sugars so making a starter with DME may have added some complex sugars that the original yeast can ferment.

But, from the CBC-1, technical data sheet:

so you should be OK. Over time, if you see signs of "gushers", making a starter with DME for bottle conditioning may be the cause.

 

[DuncB]

If the CBC only ferments simple sugar and the residual yeast ferments the complex sugar why would you get a gusher?
Can't see that more gas would be produced just because fermented by two yeasts.
Gusher surely more likely due to overpriming or infection.

 

[mac_1103]

If the CBC only ferments simple sugar and the residual yeast ferments the complex sugar why would you get a gusher?
Can't see that more gas would be produced just because fermented by two yeasts.
Gusher surely more likely due to overpriming or infection.

The idea is that in the scenario where you add a CBC-1 starter made with DME plus the amount of priming sugar needed for the desired level of carbonation, you would in fact be overpriming due to the addition of residual complex sugars from the DME. OTOH, CBC-1 is a killer yeast and would be expected to prevent the original beer yeast from doing any more fermenting of anything, simple or complex. And in this case the original yeast had already failed to carb before the CBC-1 was added so it's likely already dead or gone anyway.

 

[gaviga]

I have used CBC yeast successfully. But I have also just used priming sugar with existing yeast in my RISs and barley wines (>11%) successfully, too. In fact it's all I do anymore. I bottle condition for at least 2 weeks before I lower temps. I generally cellar my big beers for at least a year before I even try them. Patience!

 

[Steveruch]

Correct! Well spotted, EC-1118 data says to18%.

I brewed a couple of meads to 18% with EC-1118.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The idea is that in the scenario where you add a CBC-1 starter made with DME plus the amount of priming sugar needed for the desired level of carbonation, you would in fact be overpriming due to the addition of residual complex sugars from the DME. OTOH, CBC-1 is a killer yeast and would be expected to prevent the original beer yeast from doing any more fermenting of anything, simple or complex. And in this case the original yeast had already failed to carb before the CBC-1 was added so it's likely already dead or gone anyway.

Visual plus one!

And, for future readers,

• fermenting with a lower attenuating yeast (say S-33) and
• bottling conditioning with a higher attenuating yeast (say US-05)

is likely to yield gushers - as the higher attenuating strain (used for bottle conditioning) will be able to ferment the complex sugars left behind by the lower attenuating strain.

 

[DuncB]

The idea is that in the scenario where you add a CBC-1 starter made with DME plus the amount of priming sugar needed for the desired level of carbonation, you would in fact be overpriming due to the addition of residual complex sugars from the DME.

AHH I see you are overpriming.
Why not measure fg of your starter and calculate sugar to add to get correct vols?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

or "KISS":

• simple sugar for carbonation;
• dry pitch (or rehydrate) bottle conditioning yeast (or wine yeast).

 

[DuncB]

or "KISS":

• simple sugar for carbonation;
• dry pitch (or rehydrate) bottle conditioning yeast (or wine yeast).

Completely agree. Without equipment calculating pitch rate of starter is a guesstimate.

 

[mac_1103]

Why not measure fg of your starter and calculate sugar to add to get correct vols?

Or let the yeast settle and decant the DME. Or make the starter with simple sugar and nutrients. Or just skip the starter altogether as already suggested.

 

[hungupdown]

The idea is that in the scenario where you add a CBC-1 starter made with DME plus the amount of priming sugar needed for the desired level of carbonation, you would in fact be overpriming due to the addition of residual complex sugars from the DME. OTOH, CBC-1 is a killer yeast and would be expected to prevent the original beer yeast from doing any more fermenting of anything, simple or complex. And in this case the original yeast had already failed to carb before the CBC-1 was added so it's likely already dead or gone anyway.

That all makes sense.

But I'm hoping the settled yeast slurry, would be mostly yeast, so not contain much of the remaining simple or complex sugars anyway.

Final starter measured SG 1075, so contained around 200g sugars/L.
If slurry was say 80% yeast #, it would contain 40g sugars /L. (# leaving initial slurries, to settle for a long time, only 10% liquid ever seems to separate from it.)
So pitching at 3g/L, or approx 3mL/L, would add 40 * 3/ 1000 g of sugars /L

That equals just 0.12g sugars /L, which doesnt seem too much, on top of the 5g /L added at initial (failed) priming.

 

[hungupdown]

Visual plus one!

And, for future readers,

• fermenting with a lower attenuating yeast (say S-33) and
• bottling conditioning with a higher attenuating yeast (say US-05)

is likely to yield gushers - as the higher attenuating strain (used for bottle conditioning) will be able to ferment the complex sugars left behind by the lower attenuating strain.

Or conditioning using a killer yeast strain, with the STA1 or DEX1 genes, that are able to utilize Dextrins. Following a primary fermentation using (most) yeasts, that leave dextrins untouched.

 

[mac_1103]

a killer yeast strain, with the STA1 or DEX1 genes, that are able to utilize Dextrins

Does such a thing exist?