Blending NEIPA yeasts

[abrewer12345]

a couple friends and i are doing some yeast experiments with a NEIPA we're brewing. we're going to do the same beer 4 times with 4 different yeasts to see which ones we like most.

Below are the yeasts we're using:
Imperial Joystick
Imperial Juice
Imperial Dry Hop
Bootleg Biology NEEPAH

currently fermenting are Joystick and Juice, which look jarringly different- which is fun. The overall goal is to blend a bit of yeast and see what we get. Does anyone have experience with this? For instance, if we did a 70/30 blend of Joystick and Juice respectively. Stay tuned for updates on the experiment and happy to share the recipe!

Cheers

 

[couchsending]

Blending the final beer or blending the yeasts to ferment with?

Joystick is a Chico derivative..

Juice is 1318

One creats a lot of esters and one is clean and lets all aspect of the hop shine.. and attenuates more.

Just depends on what you want.

For modern hoppy beers approaching 8% I’d always recommend adding a little Cal Ale. You end up with a lighter, more drinkable beer,

 

[Loud Brewing]

I agree with couchsending.
After trying soley LA3/conan/04 etc in my neipas I always find my way back to some chico/cal ale/05 for that clean crushable taste.
A24/Dry Hop is very popular for neipas here and its already blended conan/wild sacc out of the package and has given me some nice results.

 

[abrewer12345]

Blending the final beer or blending the yeasts to ferment with?

Joystick is a Chico derivative..

Juice is 1318

One creats a lot of esters and one is clean and lets all aspect of the hop shine.. and attenuates more.

Just depends on what you want.

For modern hoppy beers approaching 8% I’d always recommend adding a little Cal Ale. You end up with a lighter, more drinkable beer,

the plan is to blend the yeasts we like and find the right ratios. we’ve never done it but interested to see what happens. california ale is white labs right?

I agree with couchsending.
After trying soley LA3/conan/04 etc in my neipas I always find my way back to some chico/cal ale/05 for that clean crushable taste.
A24/Dry Hop is very popular for neipas here and its already blended conan/wild sacc out of the package and has given me some nice results.

yeah ive heard good things about dry hop, not sure itll be mixed well but if we really love it, might be worth a shot. so you have experience blending yeasts? how did you approach ratios?

 

[Loud Brewing]

Mainly I have experimented with ferm temps and pitch quantities as a way to enhance or suppress esters, especially with the kveiks. But I have had success in adding a pack of 05 to conan which is usually my go to for neipas. Makes for a very ballanced yeast profile.

 

[Jag75]

Have any of you tried GY054? Its fantastic imo. Great yeast for a NEIPA. I've never tried blending any yeast though. The only thing I've tried blended was Sam 76 .

 

[couchsending]

the plan is to blend the yeasts we like and find the right ratios. we’ve never done it but interested to see what happens. california ale is white labs right?



yeah ive heard good things about dry hop, not sure itll be mixed well but if we really love it, might be worth a shot. so you have experience blending yeasts? how did you approach ratios?

Cal Ale, Chico, American Ale... all just kind of generic terms for the same style of yeast. Generally really clean and forgiving of higher temps and lets all aspects of the hop shine. And generally a really reliable attenuator.

001 from white labs, 1056 from Wyeast, US05, joystick/Pac-Man, San Diego super, etc etc. They’re all genetically slightly different but produce similar results.

Saison yeasts are probably the most popular to blend. DuPont plus a little French will get you the profile of Dupont but the attenuation of French, avoiding the “stall” in fermentation typical of DuPont.

With blending it just depends on what you want to accomplish. Are you looking just for esters? Mouthfeel? Attenuation? Flocculation? Fermentation Speed?

Issue with blends is after a generation or two the ratio will change.

Dry yeast is probably the easiest way to start cause you can easily weigh out ratios.

 

[couchsending]

GY054, Barbarian, Omega 052, TYB Vermont Ale, are all basically the same yeast. Some variation of Conan harvested from beers from the Alchemist.

A lot of people seem to think the Gigayeast version is the best. I think I’ve only used the Imperial and TYB versions.

 

[kh54s10]

IMO, there are too many variables to know what is going to happen when blending yeasts. You might get totally different results from just a few degrees in temperature difference. One yeast may dominate if you ferment at 64 degrees and the other may dominate if you ferment at 68 degrees. Knowing pitch rates of each would be very difficult unless you did a cell count with a microscope. An imbalance in pitch rates would alter the outcome. Lag times probably differ between the yeasts. If one starts very slowly the bulk of the fermentation might be done by the other by the time the slow one gets going. Replicating this in another brew session would be very hit or miss.

No science to back this up, but it seems logical. I would use just one yeast at a time and work with variables of pitch rates, fermentation temperatures etc.

 

[abrewer12345]

Cal Ale, Chico, American Ale... all just kind of generic terms for the same style of yeast. Generally really clean and forgiving of higher temps and lets all aspects of the hop shine. And generally a really reliable attenuator.

001 from white labs, 1056 from Wyeast, US05, joystick/Pac-Man, San Diego super, etc etc. They’re all genetically slightly different but produce similar results.

Saison yeasts are probably the most popular to blend. DuPont plus a little French will get you the profile of Dupont but the attenuation of French, avoiding the “stall” in fermentation typical of DuPont.

With blending it just depends on what you want to accomplish. Are you looking just for esters? Mouthfeel? Attenuation? Flocculation? Fermentation Speed?

Issue with blends is after a generation or two the ratio will change.

Dry yeast is probably the easiest way to start cause you can easily weigh out ratios.

i think the plan is to get a bright clean hoppy beer with a nice balance of body- which would make me think if doing a small blend it'd be 70/30 joystick and juice respectively. just trying to horse around a bit! never thought about the ratio change to be honest. so if we harvested the yeast post fermentation, then fed it, the ratios would get wonky- thats what youre saying right?

 

[Jag75]

Do you guys think that yeast could battle trying to eat the sugar and cause off flavors ?

And in this corner ! Lol

 

[abrewer12345]

Do you guys think that yeast could battle trying to eat the sugar and cause off flavors ?

And in this corner ! Lol

haha i'll keep you posted how the experiment goes and who wins!

 

[kh54s10]

Do you guys think that yeast could battle trying to eat the sugar and cause off flavors ?
An
And in this corner ! Lol

I don't think you should get any off flavors. But see my earlier reply. I think one yeast would dominate depending on many different scenarios, which one?? And by how much. The big thing is that it would be almost impossible to replicate. So if you get something great! Good luck doing it again.

 

[Jag75]

I think with Sam 76 they combine at the very end but I'm not sure .

 

[kh54s10]

Yes Sam 76 ferments one part with a lager yeast and another part with an ale yeast then blend them together near the end of fermentation, then dry hopped. So each yeast will have the chance to do most of the fermentation on it's part of the beer before they are combined.

 

[Loud Brewing]

Yes Sam 76 ferments one part with a lager yeast and another part with an ale yeast then blend them together near the end of fermentation, then dry hopped. So each yeast will have the chance to do most of the fermentation on it's part of the beer before they are combined.

Coincidentally I had my first can of 76 last night and enjoyed it quite a lot. I didn't realize it was a blend until I saw the website

 

[Northern_Brewer]

No science to back this up, but it seems logical.

Not really, when there's plenty of history and science to back up the use of blends which have been the norm for British family brewers since forever, and were the norm in all brewing until the late 19th century. The Hansenist approach of using single strains is very much the aberration in historical terms.

And with good reason - yeast interact in all sorts of useful ways, achieving combinations of say flavour, attenuation and flocculation that are impossible within the constraints set by Hansen.

 

[kh54s10]

Not really, when there's plenty of history and science to back up the use of blends which have been the norm for British family brewers since forever, and were the norm in all brewing until the late 19th century. The Hansenist approach of using single strains is very much the aberration in historical terms.

And with good reason - yeast interact in all sorts of useful ways, achieving combinations of say flavour, attenuation and flocculation that are impossible within the constraints set by Hansen.

But did they really know before the late 19th century what was really happening?? Or how to control it? If you go far enough back, they stirred the "mash" with the magic fermentation stick...

 

[Northern_Brewer]

No - other than it worked. But the point is it did work - and has been working for decades now since they worked out they had multiple strains in their pitching yeast - and made a conscious decision to use a blend of strains.

 

[kh54s10]

No - other than it worked. But the point is it did work - and has been working for decades now since they worked out they had multiple strains in their pitching yeast - and made a conscious decision to use a blend of strains.

And how many terrible beers did they make before they came upon a couple of strains that worked. And are you sure that both strains contributed something or in reality was it only one strain that did the work?

 

[Genuine]

I've used Juice, S-04 and 1318 in my last 8 batches of NEIPA. YMMV, however with my experiences, S-04 is great in a pinch however produces a NEIPA that's not so bright. Juice has been great, as with 1318. I have a couple pouches of DryHop that I haven't used yet and I'm beyond excited to.

 

[Dgallo]

DryHop that I haven't used yet and I'm beyond excited to.

You’ll be glad you did! It’s a terrific yeast and is a blend itself of A04 Barbarian (Conan strain) and A20 - Citrus (wild saccharomyces strain).

 

[Northern_Brewer]

And how many terrible beers did they make before they came upon a couple of strains that worked. And are you sure that both strains contributed something or in reality was it only one strain that did the work?

Well back then you got terrible beers for all sorts of reasons, the yeast was the least of it. But yes, I'm sure that there's a really good reason why so many British breweries made a conscious decision when trying to "simplify" their yeast according to scientific principles after WWII that they still went with multistrains. It's basic yeast biology that yeast that drop well tend not to attenuate well - from the POV of a commercial brewer selling cask beer you want a yeast that drops well in cask, but good attenuation a)ups the ABV without additional grist costs and b)makes beer more stable by reducing the food that's left for wild yeast to feed on. Those two things seldom come in a single package (which is why Whitbread B was so prized) - and also the high attenuators tend to be a bit clean (like Notty) and don't give the flavours that are so essential to the best British beers.

 

[Genuine]

You’ll be glad you did! It’s a terrific yeast and is a blend itself of A04 Barbarian (Conan strain) and A20 - Citrus (wild saccharomyces strain).

I should say, I haven't used it in an NEIPA while trying to keep O2 down after fermentation. The first NEIPA I made (for my wedding), I didn't believe the "hype" about how sensitive the style is to oxygen, etc. So , After fermentation I racked to a non purged keg like I normally would...with the lid off. After carbonating, the aroma was great...however there was ZERO flavor in that beer, zip, zilch. I dumped half the keg. After that, I swore off NEIPA's till this past spring where I feel like mine has improved 100% since keeping oxygen out as much as possible.

 

[abrewer12345]

the winner of the first round was Joystick as it was most preferred by people in a blind taste test. Visually, i preferred Juice, but from a flavor, balance and nose standpoint, i preferred joystick. it was more orange for sure too, and a bit clearer too.

Kegging NEEPAH and Dryhop this Saturday. NEEPAH was farmed from a batch of yeast from around end of summer and refrigerated. just from the gravity readings 6-7 days in, the NEEPAH has some diacetyl in it still. think i should be worried about contamination? i'm warming up the carboy right now to try and get a rest going. the Dryhop beer smells fantastic and looks great. same visually as juice vs joystick. NEEPAH is more pale and looks thicker, and dryhop looks more orange and classic NEEPAH. i'll post some pictures here when they're ready to drink.

 

[abrewer12345]

heres the juice and joystick variants

 

[Brooothru]

heres the juice and joystick variants

I'm not so sure that any "blends" work the way people think they do. Caveat: I'm not a microbiologist, nor did I sleep last night at a Holiday Inn Express.

That said, individual yeast strains (like any living organisms, be they multi-cellular or single cell) prefer their own "kind" and aggressively reproduce with their own "kind" to populate their environment with "like kinds." They compete with other species through displacement to dominate their environment, and in so doing also seek to destroy and eliminate (through cannibalization IIRC) their competitors. This is exactly what we do when we propagate a yeast starter. When we pitch that starter into fresh wort we inoculate that wort with an overwhelming number of 'desirable' yeast cells which consume the 'food' and prevent other colonies (wild yeast) from gaining a foothold.

Cross propagation with other yeast colonies does occur in small numbers, which results in genetic drift over multiple generations. That explains why there are so many different yeasts available, but that is the result of multiple mutations over a multitude of iterations. A few hundred thousand hybrids don't stand a chance against the thousands of billion native yeast cells. The stronger cell (be it native or hybrid) will pass on it's stronger genetic coding to succeeding generations and eventually come to dominate. In short, given any single fermentation the predominant yeast strain will prevail over the nominal strain and provide the distinctive flavors, characteristics and esters that we associate with that yeast. It won't be until many generations later that hybrid yeasts with new, discernible flavor differences will begin to express and dominate.

Just as in blending wines, a better and more predictable outcome would be achieved by fermenting a split batch using two strains to express the characteristics you want to showcase. My belief is that pitching two competing strains into the same fermentation would only result in eventually one dominant strain doing all the work, while the subordinate goes dormant and flocs to the bottom of the yeast cake.

But that's just my opinion... I could be wrong.

Brooo Brother

 

[Dgallo]

I'm not so sure that any "blends" work the way people think they do. Caveat: I'm not a microbiologist, nor did I sleep last night at a Holiday Inn Express.

That said, individual yeast strains (like any living organisms, be they multi-cellular or single cell) prefer their own "kind" and aggressively reproduce with their own "kind" to populate their environment with "like kinds." They compete with other species through displacement to dominate their environment, and in so doing also seek to destroy and eliminate (through cannibalization IIRC) their competitors. This is exactly what we do when we propagate a yeast starter. When we pitch that starter into fresh wort we inoculate that wort with an overwhelming number of 'desirable' yeast cells which consume the 'food' and prevent other colonies (wild yeast) from gaining a foothold.

Cross propagation with other yeast colonies does occur in small numbers, which results in genetic drift over multiple generations. That explains why there are so many different yeasts available, but that is the result of multiple mutations over a multitude of iterations. A few hundred thousand hybrids don't stand a chance against the thousands of billion native yeast cells. The stronger cell (be it native or hybrid) will pass on it's stronger genetic coding to succeeding generations and eventually come to dominate. In short, given any single fermentation the predominant yeast strain will prevail over the nominal strain and provide the distinctive flavors, characteristics and esters that we associate with that yeast. It won't be until many generations later that hybrid yeasts with new, discernible flavor differences will begin to express and dominate.

Just as in blending wines, a better and more predictable outcome would be achieved by fermenting a split batch using two strains to express the characteristics you want to showcase. My belief is that pitching two competing strains into the same fermentation would only result in eventually one dominant strain doing all the work, while the subordinate goes dormant and flocs to the bottom of the yeast cake.

But that's just my opinion... I could be wrong.

Brooo Brother

blending yeast will certainly work to achieve a different ester profile and mouthfeel characteristic that you would not be able to produce with one strain. Take many of the Farmhouse, Brett, lacto, ped, strains tht are purposely blended to achieve a multitude of different characteristic. I personally copitched my quick sours with brewers yeast and a lacto blend.

But like you said, drift will inevitably occur over sequential generations due to flocculation and reproductive rates and constant repeatability is difficult unless over build individual strain starters and blend them with the use of a microscopic for pitch rates

 

[abrewer12345]

I'm not so sure that any "blends" work the way people think they do. Caveat: I'm not a microbiologist, nor did I sleep last night at a Holiday Inn Express.

That said, individual yeast strains (like any living organisms, be they multi-cellular or single cell) prefer their own "kind" and aggressively reproduce with their own "kind" to populate their environment with "like kinds." They compete with other species through displacement to dominate their environment, and in so doing also seek to destroy and eliminate (through cannibalization IIRC) their competitors. This is exactly what we do when we propagate a yeast starter. When we pitch that starter into fresh wort we inoculate that wort with an overwhelming number of 'desirable' yeast cells which consume the 'food' and prevent other colonies (wild yeast) from gaining a foothold.

Cross propagation with other yeast colonies does occur in small numbers, which results in genetic drift over multiple generations. That explains why there are so many different yeasts available, but that is the result of multiple mutations over a multitude of iterations. A few hundred thousand hybrids don't stand a chance against the thousands of billion native yeast cells. The stronger cell (be it native or hybrid) will pass on it's stronger genetic coding to succeeding generations and eventually come to dominate. In short, given any single fermentation the predominant yeast strain will prevail over the nominal strain and provide the distinctive flavors, characteristics and esters that we associate with that yeast. It won't be until many generations later that hybrid yeasts with new, discernible flavor differences will begin to express and dominate.

Just as in blending wines, a better and more predictable outcome would be achieved by fermenting a split batch using two strains to express the characteristics you want to showcase. My belief is that pitching two competing strains into the same fermentation would only result in eventually one dominant strain doing all the work, while the subordinate goes dormant and flocs to the bottom of the yeast cake.

But that's just my opinion... I could be wrong.

Brooo Brother

definitely leaning away from actually blending the yeast. looking more to find the perfect house yeast or at the least figure out which yeast we want to use for specific styles or hops

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Thanks for posting. I've been working my way through yeasts on my hazy IPAs and will have to add pacman to my queue. I'm currently fermenting with WLP east coast ale and was going to do 1272 next.

 

[abrewer12345]

Thanks for posting. I've been working my way through yeasts on my hazy IPAs and will have to add pacman to my queue. I'm currently fermenting with WLP east coast ale and was going to do 1272 next.

i love it- i recommend trying to brew the same beer so you can easily compare. working well for us. all citra, 2-row and some oats.

 

[beervoid]

the winner of the first round was Joystick as it was most preferred by people in a blind taste test. Visually, i preferred Juice, but from a flavor, balance and nose standpoint, i preferred joystick. it was more orange for sure too, and a bit clearer too.

Kegging NEEPAH and Dryhop this Saturday. NEEPAH was farmed from a batch of yeast from around end of summer and refrigerated. just from the gravity readings 6-7 days in, the NEEPAH has some diacetyl in it still. think i should be worried about contamination? i'm warming up the carboy right now to try and get a rest going. the Dryhop beer smells fantastic and looks great. same visually as juice vs joystick. NEEPAH is more pale and looks thicker, and dryhop looks more orange and classic NEEPAH. i'll post some pictures here when they're ready to drink.

Great experiment. Got a joystick neipa aging as we speak. Wasn't too impressed with the nose so far. I'll give some feedback after some aging.
What did your hopbill and dry hopping schedule look like?
How long till fermentation finish? Mine seemed to be done on day 5. Attenuation was also higher then with Juice leaving the beer a bit thinner.
Cheers!

 

[Genuine]

Here’s my latest with Imperials Dryhop

 

[brew703]

Here’s my latest with Imperials DryhopView attachment 667691

Nice color. Did you use honey malt to get that color?

 

[Genuine]

Nice color. Did you use honey malt to get that color?

I use honey malt in all of my NEIPA's however that one used 3.7% of Crystal 40 and 3.7% of Honey Malt. According to Brewfather it's an SRM of 7.3. It glows in the sun for sure however it's more of a copper color indoors with low lighting. Also, that beer isn't meant to be hazy and didn't use any adjuncts. 2 oz in the boil, 2 oz whirl pool and 2 oz dryhopped.

 

[abrewer12345]

Great experiment. Got a joystick neipa aging as we speak. Wasn't too impressed with the nose so far. I'll give some feedback after some aging.
What did your hopbill and dry hopping schedule look like?
How long till fermentation finish? Mine seemed to be done on day 5. Attenuation was also higher then with Juice leaving the beer a bit thinner.
Cheers!

we really enjoy what joystick does for the beer- definitely not as thick as neepah or juice, but we wanted to lean more on the pale ale side of ipa, so we get a much cleaner flavor from ours. still plenty of body for us, big aroma too. we hit it with 8oz 2 points from terminal.

the beer we use it on currently is a single/double hop series so it was all citra in the attached picture.
.5oz ctz at 60, 2oz of citra at flameout, 20 minute whirlpool at 170 with 4oz, cool and pitch. ferment at 68, ramp up after 4 days to 72, pull yeast and add dry hops just before terminal.

 

[abrewer12345]

Here’s my latest with Imperials DryhopView attachment 667691

this looks awesome- i want to use dry hop again asap