Another Hefeweizen Question

[misflt]

When you read the following, keep this in mind. My question is this. Why does my Wort have no banana or clove at all??

So, I have been a macro drinker my whole life until a year ago. Since then I have brewed simple ales, always extract and drank those or other craft beers. Who knew I wasted so much time drinking the same swill I guzzled in college.

Recently I tried Franzikaner Weissbier and I loved it. Decided to try making it and checked NB for a kit. Noticed I had all the ingredients in their kit except yeast, since I was ordering bottling supplies, I added the only liquid yeast in stock, wlp300 I wanted Wyeast 3068, oh well.

The recipe calls for:

6lb Wheat LME
1lb Wheat DME
1oz Tettnang 60 min.
Wyeast 3068 OR White Labs WLP300

I only had DME so I converted the LME to DME which worked out to the 1lb DME it called for and 4.8lb more DME to sub for LME. I had 2 3lb bags of DME, so, I used it all, so it will be a tiny fraction higher OG, no biggie. I used Hallertau Mittlefruh and WLP300.

I brought water to a boil per instructions on NB's website for their Hefe Kit. Added half the DME, stirred in then added the other half. As soon as it came back to a boil, I waited for the protein break and stirred it back in. Once it settled down, I started my 60 minute boil and added .5oz Hallertau. Let it boil and with 15 to go, I added the other .5oz Hallertau and my wort chiller to sanitize. I had pre-sanitized my carboy, hoses, air lock, spoons, etc. in Starsan. Took the finished wort to the sink and hooked up chiller, let chill to 66 degrees, took 12 minutes. Poured wort into my carboy, took a sample. OG was 1.054. Placed in a 68 degree room, closed up with a bung for an airlock, inserted lower half of airlock and a hose to make a blow off tube, end of tube in a half gallon jar full of Starsan and water.

Let the wort ferment from 1/20 until 1/27. Pitched yeast around 11pm on 1/19. Didn't see any activity until 7am when it was just beginning to get the blow off tube to bubble once every 20-30 seconds. At 10am it was already Krausening and overwhelming the blow off tube. I was impressed. So, to not blow off too much wort, I added some Fermcap, this knocked down the krausen to the point it was staying out of the Blow off tube.

Primary ferment lasted 4 days, slow ferment for one day, last two days basically no activity. On 1/27 I took the FG and it was 1.016. Having read most people only get it to finish around 1.014 I called it finished, knowing it would further dry out in the bottle if it was going to get any lower. I sanitized my bottling bucket and gear, racked the wort to bucket and bottled with freshly washed and sanitized bottles and caps.

After I had taken my FG reading, I sampled the wort from my test tube. It is spicy. It's definitely not just plain wheat flavor, it has a spiciness to it BUT, it isn't clove and there is no banana at all. It smells of wheat and the yeast, it honestly reminds me of the smell of Natural Light. So, what happened? I have read every thread I can find on Hefe's with no clove or banana. They all seem to say the wort was fermented too cool, that the people needed to let it ferment around 68-72 for the banana and clove to be stronger. I fermented at 68 room temp, the wort was 70.

I also read that the yeast need to be stressed by under pitching. I only added one vial of wlp300, was this low enough?

I appreciate any idea's and constructive criticism of my method. We learn from trial and error, but, input from those much more experienced, will teach a person much faster.

 

[OleGoatBrewing]

I use WLP300, but I usually have a 60% White Wheat Malt and 40% 2-Row gain bill. I only use Hallertau hops and have really good Hefe's.

To up the banana ferment on the upper range (temp wise) and possibly under pitch to stress the yeast.

For cloves (if you want more)..add a clove or three to the recipe.

I'd say keep playing with it. Hefe's are a really great to adjust the profile with very small tweaks. Good luck!

 

[dk21]

You'll read some different opinions on how to make the best hefeweizen. I had similar difficulty, but found that pitching the proper amount of yeast and fermenting cool was the ticket. I used WLP380 at 64 degrees on my last hefe and had a great combination of clove and banana. Your mileage may vary, of course. Next time you brew it, try something different until you find what's ideal for you.

 

[Cacaman]

Usually with hefes theres two spectrums. Cloviness OR banana(ness). Ferment colder for clove, hotter for banana. WLP300 gives more banana flavored notes, while WLP380 is a little clovier.

On another note, your recipe calls for tettnang while you said you used hallertau. I think the latter is a better choice, good smooth german noble hop to let the yeast flavors come through more.

Edit: If you just sampled it from the fermenter, maybe wait until its carb'd and conditioned a few weeks then see what you get. You'll be surprised how it may develop.

 

[TheCADJockey]

I did a very similar recipe, used Danstar Munich Wheat Beer Yeast. It is getting kegged tonight when I get home from work. The sample I tried of it tasted no clove or banana, although I always have a hard time evaluating a sample. Mine was 1.014 on Monday. I always kept it ~60 degrees for a week and let it come up to room temp for the second week. Hope it turns out.

 

[bembel]

Lived in Germany for 10 years, and I am a huge weizen fan, especially Franziskaner since it has such a decided clove flavor, and got into brewing just because its nearly impossible to find Kristal Weizen for less than $5 a bottle if you can find it at all.

(Kristal is just a filtered or clarified HefeWeizen, I prefer it since I find it tastes 'brighter')

My first two attempts were pretty much the same recipe that you followed, both extract, but neither came out to a beer that even resembled a proper Weizen, far too dark and malty, and no clove at all, just slight banana.

Finally I decided to try a super simple All Grain recipe ( Ed Wort, of course, his Bee Cave post) but lowered the fermentation temp to about 58-60

and the difference is NIGHT AND DAY, I can't even believe I can make beer that tastes/looks this good. The lighter color wort you get from AG is key, I don't think its possible to make a light colored bavarian style Weizen, ( Franziskaner-ische) using extract, the color and flavors are just not accurate.

If you are doing extract for size / heating restrictions, really consider trying a small AG batch, you can easily split the Bee Cave recipe for a 2.5 to 3 gallon BIAB and do it in a kitchen

This is exactly what I do, you can use a strike water calculator to play around with the amounts depending on how big your brew pot(s) are. I split the boil into two 3 gallon pots which I heat on a regular electric stovetop

4LBS German Wheat (double mill the wheat)
3LBS German Pils


I like the clove forward, so I put about 8 quarts of water that is 117F into my pre-warmed ( filled with warm tap water then dumped out) 10 gallon cooler lined with the bag, this drops the temp of the mash to 110-111 after I stir in the grain, where I leave it for 15 min, ( this is referred to as a ferulic rest, lots of debate as to effectiveness, I do it since i get a very clove forward result and its pretty easy)

I then add 7.5 quarts of boiling water to the cooler which brings everything up to 150-151F, stir it some more and let it sit for 75 minutes more. (90 min total mash)

Then I drain the wort by lifting out the bag, set the bag into the steaming insert of one of the 3 gallon pots and pour about 3 quarts of simmering water over it to get out a smidge more wort. Call it a hybrid sparge. Between the sparge and the wort in the cooler, I am left with 3.75 to 4 gallons of pre-boil which usually has an SG of 1.040-1.046, I mix the sparge solution back into the cooler and then split the wort into two 3 gallon pots and boil for an hour using this hops schedule

.50 oz Hallertau at 45
.25 oz Hallertau at 15
one Whirlfloc at 15

Cool both pots down in Ice water in sink, as soon as they are cool enough to move, I pour them into a FastFerment conical and let them settle and cool further until the temp is about 65. At that point, I purge all the heavy sediment from the conical to get rid of all the solids that accumulate from the Whirlfloc and have 2.5-2.75 gallons of clear wort, around SG 1.052-54.

I pitch either a smack pack of Wyeast 3068 or 3056, no starter, and keep the temp at 65 until I get airlock action ( usually 24 hours) then as close to 60F as possible for a week, then rack to a carboy, cold crash overnight, keg, and fine with gelatin.



By the way, Make SURE your LBHS has a good mill, it amazes me how your extraction will differ depending on the mill they have/ you use.

 

[misflt]

First off, Thank you for the replies Guys!!

The Mrs. has me on a budget. I only get to blow so much on equipment and of course I want a Herms setup, you know, one of those fancy stainless brew carts, with 3 burners, all the nice bells and whistles, Blichman HLT, Brew pot, Mash Tun, my own mill, a few stainless conical fermenters...... we can dream...right? I've always bought the best, thinking it will last for life, unless I can find something cheaper, that is same quality. Whatever I buy will be usable in a HERMS system eventually.

Anyway, I have been saving up for a nice brew kettle to start with, here is my dilemma. I want to be versatile. I can't decide if I want a 10, 15 or 20 gallon. I am leaning on 15, so I can do 10 gallon all grain batches, which would be as big as I would ever do, I just wonder if that is enough space to have no boil over issues??? So, this is what I am waiting on, before I buy. Are blichman brewpots worth it or are the Megapots from NB as good? I am thinking of a couple of the 10 gallon home depot coolers for a HLT and MLT.

Bembel.... I like your process and recipe. Simple, and straight forward. I will be trying this once I have the proper equipment, which will be soon.

Cacaman.... I am hoping it will develope some flavors with age in the bottles. I will keep everyone informed. At worst it will be like an American Wheat Beer. I will be looking into WLP380.

Olegoat...... I will use your tips in future attempts if this one doesn't turn out right.

Thanks again everyone for the info!

 

[ericbw]

I really think it has everything to do with fermentation temp. Esp if you meant you fermented at an ambient temp of 68 degrees. Low 60s would probably be better.

Don't get distracted by equipment.

Also remember that not every bottle of Franz has that awesome banana aroma. Sometimes even they fall short. But when it does, it's amazing.

 

[misflt]

Ericbw, I fermented at 68 ambient. The wort got as high as 72 second day in. I won't get caught up in the stainless/copper porn yeah... right! Lol, seriously though, all I really want is the equipment I need to properly brew beer as efficiently as possible while using a HERMS system. This means I will do like everyone else, buy it piece by piece.

Anyway, today I talked to an old friend that has brewed for 20+ years. He said that wheat extract sucks. That DME and LME are basically sweetener with some flavor. All it really does is raise the gravity and maybe give the yeast a little something extra but not much, and it flavors. He said in order for the yeast to create the Phenol's/Esters, they need to be stressed by under pitching. He pointed me to Wyeast's website for an explanation. I found this:

"The classic and most popular German wheat beer strain used worldwide. This yeast strain produces a beautiful and delicate balance of banana esters and clove phenolics. The balance can be manipulated towards ester production through increasing the fermentation temperature, increasing the wort density, and decreasing the pitch rate. Over pitching can result in a near complete loss of banana character. Decreasing the ester level will allow a higher clove character to be perceived. Sulfur is commonly produced, but will dissipate with conditioning. This strain is very powdery and will remain in suspension for an extended amount of time following attenuation. This is true top cropping yeast and requires fermenter headspace of 33%."

He explained that low temps (60-64) will produce low/no esters which will result in more clove. High temps (70-75) will produce esters resulting in banana. A balance is achieved with temps kept mid-range. Temp alone will not produce the big clove or banana most people are looking for, to get the really big hit of clove or banana, use appropriate temp's and also under pitch. He mentioned reduced O2 levels will also stress the yeast but that it will slow the ferment considerably and he never has had to do that. Temp and under pitching will give a good result that aren't too strong in flavor.

He also pointed out that yeast still need the proper nutrients to feed on to grow healthy and produce the esters. Wheat Extracts won't do that alone and he said its better for quality purposes to add grains than yeast nutrients. So, he recommended a partial mash. A flaked wheat and Wheat malt addition 1 hour steep at 145-155. Lower for a drier beer, higher for sweeter.

To under pitch, I am going to prep my wyeast pack same as always, but, I will pour the yeast into a quart mason jar that has been sanitized and filled with wort. I will shake it very well and then pour off half the quart into a pint jar. This should give me a pretty evenly split batch of yeast. One jar will go into the fermenter. The other will be loosely capped and placed in the refrigerator to be used in the next batch. Hopefully this pitch rate will be low enough to stress the yeast??? Any thoughts on this process?

 

[dk21]

I just scanned the thread and couldn't find whether or not you have temperature control. I know just about everything you read says to under pitch and ferment on the warm side, but I can tell you that hefeweizen is my thing and in my experience, a proper pitch rate and low (62-64) is the way to go. I never had any luck getting banana using the under pitch warm ferment method. You may be limited, though if you can't control the fermentation temperature, so you may need to do what you have to do.

 

[JonM]

The distinctive flavors come from the yeast and from handling the yeast properly. Jamil Z is one of the guys who literally wrote the book on yeast. I have followed his recommendations for hefeweizen yeast, and have had great results. Here's an article that explains the process - proper starter, plenty of O2, low fermentation temps.

I wouldn't screw around with that stressing/underpitching stuff. Treat the yeast right, and they'll do their thing.

https://byo.com/grains/item/2265-german-hefeweizen-style-profile

 

[ericbw]

Your friend might be right about the temperature. Maybe higher temps give better banana results. And I have heard that pitching low and not adding oxygen is also helpful. A lot of the flavors are produced during reproduction, so making the yeast have to reproduce more to ferment makes sense.

But I don't quite understand what he means that wheat extract is sweetener with flavoring. All extract is wort that came from mashing grain, then reducing it down (boiling off liquid). DME is then sprayed into a mist that dehydrates quickly, leaving a dry, solid powder. Wheat extract is typically made from 40% barley malt and 60% wheat malt. The downside of it is that it has been boiled for a long time already, so you have a hard time making a really light beer, because you're then boiling it for another hour.

You stand a good chance of getting better results from using grain, so if you're going to do a partial mash, you might be better off doing all grain if you can.

 

[bembel]

misflt

The Wyeast strain guide reads like microbiology porn with a side of wine-snob, I was confused as hell and even the guys in my LHBS were not 100% sure how to "manipulate your ester production"

So I called a friend who happens to run Harvard's Microbiology Department and am meeting next week with one of their yeast experts ( who just opened a brewery) to get to the bottom of this, will be posting what I learn.

My current limited understanding is that happy ( less environmentally stressed) yeast produce more esters than un-happy ( more environmentally stressed )

If yeast are spending more time reproducing than working in order to hit an equilibrium in their environment they are un-happy ( funny, its just about the opposite with me)

So under pitch, and they need to re-produce more, fewer esters, over pitch, re-produce less, more esters.

In the meantime, a smack pack of 3068 into a 5 gallon batch is considered an under pitch based on the 100 billion cell count. (awesome explanation here from Brewer's Friend) http://www.brewersfriend.com/2012/11/07/yeast-pitch-rates-explained/

If you want clove, under pitch and ferment as low as you can in the low 60's.

If you want banana make a starter from the smack pack 12 hours before you pitch and ferment closer to 70-75.

Hope this helps your next batch!



My first extract wheat attempt was made in late August and my cellar temp was in the 70's, I used 3068 and after 3 days my basement smelled like a Chiquita processing plant, ( personally, I dont like the 'nanna at all which is why I have since made a cheap keezer to control temps)

 

[misflt]

very informative guys and thanks again for the replies!

Here is what has gone one since I was here last. I cracked open one beer to see how it was going, had 50 total, so the extra two I planned to open early to check carb. and to see how the flavors are developing.

Not too happy. The carbonation is close to right, poured 3/4 of the bottle into a heffe glass. Swirled the remaining 1/4 to get yeast sediment mixed in and poured. Color is darker than I wanted. Was going for the light blonde of Franziskaner, got a shade darker than a Bud or PBR. Barely a tiny hint of clove. DRY DRY DRY... this beer has no sweetness what so ever! It is like the driest wine you ever tasted. No banana at all. Somewhat spicy flavor but not too out front and the big disappointment, a metallic bitter kinda flavor on the back end. Also taste and smell the yeast pretty well. I am leaning towards proper pitch rate and cool ferment temps. I think I'll either make, or purchase a temp controller and hook up a spare fridge in the basement. I just hope I can get my carboy in it, its not the best fridge for ferments as it is a side by side, but, it is what I have.

DK21, I'm gonna follow your advise as well as several others.

I'm going to use up the rest of my DME doing partial mash.

New Recipe:

Hefeweizen Partial Mash
OG 1.052
FG 1.013
IBU 15
SRM 3

3.7# DME
2# Flaked Wheat
2# Wheat Malt
1oz. Tettnang or Hallertau Mittlefruh 60 minute boil

3 quarts water per pound of grain. So, 12 quarts brought up to between 145-155 lower for dry beer, higher for sweeter beer. I'm going to try and maintain 152 for the hour steep.

Put grain in brew bag and place in water. Let steep (mash) for 60 minutes. Remove and drain well.
Add Fermcap-s per its instructions.

Remove water from heat and add 2# LME, bring to a boil watching out for boil over. As soon as the wort comes to a boil
add hops and start timer for 60 minutes. With 15 minutes left, remove from heat and add 1.7# DME, stir until mixed.
Return to a boil and watch for boil over again. Add wort chiller for last 15 minutes to sanitize.

After 60 minutes are finished, move to sink, hook up wort chiller and cool to pitch temp. 62-68 degrees. Gonna go for 62 even if I have to recirculate water with ice using a small pump I have.
Remove wort chiller. Add to fermenter splashing well and I may even buy a small bottle of Oxygen and O2 stone and run it for 20 seconds. I will make a proper starter per instruction from link you guys gave me to JamilZ's post. I have a stir plate I made and a 2 liter erlenmeyer. Finally pitch yeast and maintain 62 ferment temp.

should take 2-4 days to finish, maybe more at 62??? allow 2 more for finish @ 1.000-1.014

Any opinions? I will be going to all grain asap, I have about 10lbs of DME to use up, once its gone, I will have bought a new brew kettle and a cooler for AG.

Can a 5 gallon brew in a bag All Grain be done with a 5 gallon pot? Like, 3 gallons water, all grain in a bag, steep at mash temp, remove grains, drain well, rinse with hot water from seperate smaller 3 gallon pot until up to 4 gallons or so, boil for 60 adding hops at proper times then cool, transfer to fermenter top with pre-boiled and cooled water, pitch yeast...... sound about right? Never done the brew in a bag thing. I'm just wondering if that is the way it can be done. Might do one batch that way, until i get my AG setup ready.

Gonna do a pale ale/cream ale soon, to use up some DME, got some safeale-05. I have friends that like the macro brews, i figure thats one way to use up the DME quicker and make some sessionable brews the friends can slam after we enjoy a few decent brews. Then off to nothing but all grains from now on!

 

[BurlingBrew]

Any benefit in cold crashing a hefe once fermentation has ended? I'm thinking the style suggest it's not necessary, thoughts?

 

[shelly_belly]

When I kegged mine I was a bit disappointed as it had no banana component to it and I was hoping for a banana bomb. Now that it's carbed up and has aged a few weeks it has a pleasant banana aroma.

I did not cold crash as I didn't want the yeast to drop out.

 

[Natdavis777]

Ive made a few Hefes, (50/50 pils/wheat) with 3068, always make a starter, and have always fermented on the cool side (usually pitch and hold around 62-64F) and all have been banana bombs. I love the way the turn out, and am hoping to get good feedback from an upcoming competition, but have always been curious as to why mine always come out with a good amount of banana when the rule seems to be that lower ferm temps negate the banana and express the clove.

 

[m00ps]

you should try a ferulic acid rest. Its 10-15min at ~113, then up to your regular mash temp. It creates some compunds that the hefe yeasts will convert into the clove and banana phenols. My hefes got much better and authentic tasting once I started this

 

[GHBWNY]

I used WLP380 at 64 degrees on my last hefe and had a great combination of clove and banana. QUOTE]

Same here. I brewed a similar recipe as OP, but used 380. My hefe does not have as much clove as I would have liked, but it's there. When it came to priming, I kept the sugar on the light side, but even at that, it's a little crispy, almost too carbed. But tastes awesome and probably the most refreshing beer I've brewed to date.

 

[misflt]

m00ps nailed it. As you can see above, I did a Hefe and it was blah. Not much flavor, not much clove or banana. I drank it too soon, the test beer that is. Then I let it sit 4 weeks. It was big on the banana. I wanted clove. I wanted Franziskaner. So I read everything I could. I thought temp control would do it. Wrong. I thought maybe my DME isn't doing the job, so I gave in and bought everything I needed for an All-Grain setup. Grain Mill, Grains, Nice Big Ole Pot with welded fittings, 10gallon from Spikebrewing. Round Igloo Coolers, False Bottom, etc etc etc.

Surely this time would get it right......no.

So I talked with friends, enemies, God, Jesus, and low and behold, Jesus had the answer. By the way, Jesus is the Asst. Brewmaster at a local restaurant that brews its own beer. They make a Krystalweisen. That is a Hefe that has been cold crashed, allowed to settle awhile, secondary, not in that specific order and is filtered.

After much begging, he told me what m00p said. Give it a rest! So I did.

I gave it a ferulic rest. The key is what temperature to mash at. He told me they had tried every temp in the range and the one that works best is 110f. Mashing at 110F aids in the hydrolysis of ferulic acid. The yeast use ferulic acid to produce 4-vinyl guaiacol, which is the phenolic (clove-like) flavor compound that we all seek.

So off I went, knowledge locked in my noggin, ready to Brew! Got out my grains, went with a 50-50 ratio of Wheat Malt and German Pilsner as recommended. Why, because the guy makes a hefe that Franziskaner would be proud of. If you like lots of banana, you need to increase the ratio of Glucose to Maltose. If you don't know how, google it, I'm tired, its late!

I got my grains all cracked, water heated, and mashed in at 110f on the money. Aren't brewing programs nice?!? I recirculate, It stays at 110f or whatever temp I desire. The setup cost me my firstborns College fund :| At least Dad will have beer.... there will be beer!

We all know the steps, right, so fast forward to hops. You should use Hallertau, Spalt, Tettnang, Perle, Magnum or Tradition. If you cannot source one of those, Liberty or Mount Hood can be an acceptable substitute.

Fast forward to cooling down the wort, do it FAST! Asap! We have pitch temp, with some help from a cooler of iced saltwater, we got to 62f. Yep, we will be fermenting at 62f Jesus told me it was crucial, so it fermented at 62f..... cause Jesus said so! Also, I whirpooled, it made for a much cleaner wort, no cold break. I was told to do that too, it makes a difference he said. Finally it was pitched with 3068, its the same thing Franziskaner uses, except they have supposedly, a proprietary yeast that supplements 3068. Unless you got inside connections at the brewery in Germany or you want to stand outside the brewery taking yeast samples to culture out until you get lucky and catch their "special" yeast, you won't be getting that strain. Lastly, as for yeast, pitch the exact amount needed for the amount you make. Do notover or under pitch!! That is important! The growth rate and temp affect the amount of banana in this beer.

Finally it goes in the temp controlled freezer at 62f and stays there. 3068 is aggressive!! Use a blow-off tube and jar of sanitizer/water. Don't worry, 62f is fine, the yeast makes plenty of heat, thats why ya wanna get your wort chilled to 62F and not rely on the freezer to cool 5-10 gallons. By the time it gets that large an amount of wort to 62f, the ferment will mostly be over. Its an aggressive ferment, did i mention that? 2.5-3 days and it will be about finished at room temp, at 62f it takes 3-4 days to ferment out. When finished, bottle it up and try one at 7 days, then one at 14 and another at 21. Write notes, this will determine just when it is ready, from then on, you will know and can brew the same beer over and over!!

Prost!

 

[m00ps]

Nice, I've got a hefe going now too at 62 on its way to 65. I want to try and get a good amount of banana flavors

college funds are for suckers. I went to college and came out with an engineering degree, but more importantly, an appreciation and interest in brewing beer thanks to my goof-off homebrewing basics class I took my last semester

 

[bembel]

Any benefit in cold crashing a hefe once fermentation has ended? I'm thinking the style suggest it's not necessary, thoughts?

I cold crash mine since I make Krystalweizens, but if you want yours 'mit Hefe' then there is no need to cold crash it

 

[BurlingBrew]

I cold crash mine since I make Krystalweizens, but if you want yours 'mit Hefe' then there is no need to cold crash it

Krystalweizens huh? That sounds interesting.

Thanks for your reply!

 

[m00ps]

Yeah weihestephaner (sp lol) makes a krystalweizen. Its got green letterings on its bottle and is harder to find than their flagship hefe