An Opinion You Might Find Blasphemous

So I have about one month left here in Germany and have been going around sampling a good share of brews like any man should and have come to a rather disturbing conclusion:

I think America has better beer.

Yes. That's right. I dared to say it, but frankly speaking, I think I can say that the beers I enjoy in Oregon/California/Washington and from other notable states are better and have more spunk. This is my third time being here, and second time living here longer than two months or so, and the variety isn't as one would hope. I've consumed plenty of Helles, Dunkels, Pilsners, Hefeweizens, Märchens, Koelsch (unfortunately), Altbier, and finally Rauchbier. This sounds all fine and dandy, until you realize that this is pretty much what is to be had. Good luck finding an APA, IPA, Brown Ale, Scottish Ales....actually Ales in general.

Oh and the cola/beer and lemonade/beer and grapefruit/beer mixed drinks in bottles make me want to slap someone.

The beer here is pure and damn delicious, but I think when it comes down to it, I like the variety and experimentation of American brewers and think that the products coming from our movement is giving these legendary styles a run for their money.

So anyways, EdWort and homebrewer_99 (You're the other German fiends on here I believe), do you find this to be the same or have I just become homesick because I haven't brewed in 4 months? My first time visiting Germany was my inspiration to start brewing, and now that I've developed a palate, I think i like the beers back home more. I feel like I sinned or something...

You aren't alone in that opinion. I read an article written by Michael Jackson that basically said the same thing.

I'm not surprised by this at all. There are probably more beer styles readily available in this country than anywhere else in the world and if you live in a beer rich city like Portland/Seattle/Philly/LA/SD then you *should* miss the beers there, no matter where else in the world you are.

I agree. The Germans have some of the best beer in the world, but they are not adventurous drinkers. For example, if you have German friends over, and try to get them to drink an APA, IPA, etc. good luck getting them through even the first beer. They know what they like, and it is generally their local brew or regional favorite.

This is not as true with the younger generation, but in the younger generation beer is not nearly the cool and interesting thing anymore. Germany is having some fairly serious problems with their beer industry. Although, at the end of the day, the Germans produce some of the worlds best beers, simple, fantastic, and timeless.

Sir Humpsalot said:

You aren't alone in that opinion. I read an article written by Michael Jackson that basically said the same thing.

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Isn't he also the one who said Belgium is the "Disneyland of beer," because of all the crazy styles and diversity there? Guess you need to take a road trip, Klainmeister. :cross:

Gotta agree, though. Us Yanks have things pretty good here, especially for the adventurous beer drinker.

+1 on 'no surprise'. Never drank a lot of German beer, but I do know that the hops region of the USA can make a good beer. Great Lakes/Midwest, too. But I think ancestral/local/regional tastes figure in big time too.

I just saw something about bread on the History Channel (?) A French dude said, paraphrasing: 'America can make better bread because they are not so bound to rules like the French breadmakers.' He was french, but chose to stay here because of the mindset on artisan/craft baking. Seems like the same deal with beer here, too... The USA team has beaten the French in international competition, quite a bit, IIRC.

I heard somewhere recently the opinion that the majority of European breweries are "stuck" they've been making the same beer forever (some for centuries), in the same style and we in the states since the 1980's have become the most creative, and adventurous, and willing to experiment.

I totally agree and this isn’t news to me. The beer diversity here in America is much better than in Germany, Belgium or the UK (I’m speculating on the latter 2). All because America started out with beer bad enough to get lots of people into home brewing and subsequently running micro breweries.

Thanks to InBev and Co. there is also a trend to more bland beers (the pilsners become less hoppy and more attenuated) and luckily the RHG sets a boundary to what more can be done (use of unmalted grains for example). But that RHG also prevents German brewers to explore other styles. But to be frank, I doubt that there would be many who would do so. We Germans just don’t like change.

The German brewers are best when it comes to brewing German beers. And that’s what counts. It’s less of trying to be a “Jack of all trades” as really good at doing one thing. Americans brewers are very good about making hoppy beers, and some of them are right along good German beers on my top 10 list, But only a few of them can brew a Helles or Pils that matches a good and fresh example from Germany.

BTW, I don’t mind mixing a Helles or Pils with Lemon/Lime soda. A Radler, as it is called, is one of the most refreshing drinks in the Summer.

Kai

Kaiser said:

Thanks to InBev and Co. there is also a trend to more bland beers (the pilsners become less hoppy and more attenuated) and luckily the RHG sets a boundary to what more can be done (use of unmalted grains for example). But that RHG also prevents German brewers to explore other styles. But to be frank, I doubt that there would be many who would do so. We Germans just don’t like change.

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And what do you think will happen if InBev does acquire anheiser busch?

Revvy said:

And what do you think will happen if InBev does acquire anheiser busch?

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Besides America loosing an icon? I don't know. They are very agressive when it comes to cutting costs that don't contribute to profit. And they seem to have a hunger for brands, which may mean that they might be after some of the medium sized american brands as well.

Kai

I agree about the Radler, I make those back home too when I have a good light beer nearby. But the premixed bottled stuff here is miserable, and same with the Colaweizen. Man oh man, I couldn't even finish a bottle. The new trend they are battling here is all the sugary alcohol beers that bacardi started brining in. I can't believe how popular, what most of us would consider 'girly drinks', are here. The younger generation doesn't drink as much beer as one would expect and have moved to sugar fruit alcohols. Kinda a shame if you ask me.

But yeah, glad to see I'm not alone in this. I have a craving for Deschutes and Bridgeport breweries like no other!

Revvy said:

I heard somewhere recently the opinion that the majority of European breweries are "stuck" they've been making the same beer forever (some for centuries), in the same style and we in the states since the 1980's have become the most creative, and adventurous, and willing to experiment.

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Hard to argue against any of the statements on this thread.

I live in a beer wasteland where Corona and a slight few german lagers
and a couple of english ales make up all imported beer.

Each beer I get to try is different and the pity is that I've tried all my
liquor store has to offer.

I just wish I were able to afford to travel to experience all the different brews of the world.

I don't think I'm alone in saying that some of my favorite beer styles are German (marzens, rauchbiers, bocks), but that I'd really go nuts if all I could drink were German beers.

the_bird said:

I don't think I'm alone in saying that some of my favorite beer styles are German (marzens, rauchbiers, bocks), but that I'd really go nuts if all I could drink were German beers.

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Ditto totally. I'd be craving a Hazed and Infused or a Rodenbach in no time.

theres definitely a style of beer for every occasion. As of late Ive been craving American style beers alot more than I have imports. I think American craft brew is changing things in leaps and bounds. Were not really held to any brewing tradition being that...well theres never really been any tradition other than the American Lager for so long. So the sky is the limit.

All true. I am lucky enough to get to go to Europe semi-regularly for work. Fifteen years ago, making that assertion would have identified you as a goofball, but today, in my opinion the best beers are being made in the US and Belgium. German beers are great but come on, that Beer Purity Law was passed 500 years ago and the recipes do not seem to have changed since. Damn good beer, but we could mix it up a little (and not by making a Cola Beer, God forbid!) The Belgians are experimenting almost as much as Americans are.

One thing we had going for us is that we started with a clean slate. The big breweries used to buy up and shut down the regional competition. So we had few preconceived notions about beers. I think the Belgians went through a similar process following the Second World War - but from a different cause. Those Doppels and Tripels that they do so well have only been around for a few years or decades - I was always under the impression that those were some sort of medieval monastery beers, but they are recent innovations.

boo boo said:

I just wish I were able to afford to travel to experience all the different brews of the world.

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Just take a trip to the Westcoast. In the Pac Northwest we have all kinds of microbreweries and lots of imported beers and US micro's are available at local liquor stores.

This thread interested me on the topic of GREAT beers. I've been stuck in a rut as far as always picking up my favorite beers at a great beer shop and just recently started picking up unique, top rated, hard to get beers to expand my palette. Most of them are international or European.

This thread started by saying America has "BETTER" beers and the conversation turned more into America has more variety. Not that it is off topic at all, just pointing out that both observations may be true or not independently.

German, Belgian, or European beers overall may or may not be "Better", but America does indeed have more variety. You can get most of the top European beers in America, but the same can't be said for American beers in Europe.

When I see people post pics of there "score" during a recent pickup at the liquor store/beer shop, they undoubtedly contain top notch Belgians and European brews probably because they are hard to get, not necessarily that they are the best.

Most if not all 'rankings' are subjective, and several lists abound, but of the top 20 beers on Beer Advocate, 16 are American. The 4 that arent are all Belgian.

Kaiser said:

[
The German brewers are best when it comes to brewing German beers. And that’s what counts. It’s less of trying to be a “Jack of all trades” as really good at doing one thing. Americans brewers are very good about making hoppy beers, and some of them are right along good German beers on my top 10 list, But only a few of them can brew a Helles or Pils that matches a good and fresh example from Germany.

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I think some American brewpubs/breweries could take a lesson from this. It seems that the American trend is to brew as many styles as possible. I've been to a couple brewpubs that the expression "jack of all trades, master of none" is totally appropriate. I'd like to see more of the brewing done to match what styles are most appropriate for the local water. I'm all for experimental brews, but not at the expense of good tasting flagship beers. There are enough breweries around these days that there could be some more specialization, especially since we have much better beer distribution compared to Europe. If one brewery doens't brew the style you want, chances are there is another one that is available from a different brewery. I keep trying lager and pilsners from USA microbreweries/brewpubs and I always find them a bit disappointing. I just bought some more this weekend to try. Maybe this time.

pjj2ba said:

It seems that the American trend is to brew as many styles as possible.

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I think this is where the home brewer origin of Many american brewers shows. There is a desire to experiment, but there is also the desire to as many styles as possible.

Interesting enough, the German home brewing community, as small as it is, doesn’t seem to share this desire as much either. Most of the beer they brew over there is Pilsner. Only a few seem to be willing to experiment and explore new styles (like American and Belgian). I just think it’s a culture thing.

I used to have the desire to cover as many styles as possible. But now I’m much more into perfecting a few styles and applying the experience to similar styles. Even brewing all German styles of beer is a pretty big task if you want to make sure you brew them well and end up with a recipe that you find as being just right. This is when I wished that I was in contact with a few more home brewers close to where I live. I’d love to trade some home brew to get some more variety.

Kai

The breweries i enjoy most in Oregon have mastered one or two ales and then have seasonal varieties they experiment with that can be either amazing or bland, but at least i have something to look forward to.

This is my third time back and I realized that I come back and its the kind of feeling of same **** different year. Taste the same, served the same, it's all the same. It's rather static for me.

lived for a year in Berlin, and traveled extensively around germany as well.

yes, they are stuck on pils styles mostly, and a few good exceptions come up as well. the variety is limited.

HOWEVER, the beer they make is excellent - it's really hard to find a bad beer, even amongst the cheaper/worse brands.

if you want limited variety and bad beer - just go to the caribbean. you'd wish for the variety of germany...

If you are in the South... look for Schwarz-weiß

http://homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=66748

The way I see it, the German/British tradition is a legacy of brewing. The masters of brewing in their time. But the apprentice, America, has taken these traditions and gone absolutely every direction until you can find the best examples (and the worst examples) of pretty much every beer style on earth. Some small brewing company in rural Wisconsin probably makes an absolutely delicious and true-to-style German/British that knocks the socks off of any imports. We're a nation of imported people making local beer with the traditions of these other countries in mind, yet the availability of the best ingredients and new innovations right in hand.

It does seem that Europe is suffering what we went through here a few decades ago with the big guys crushing the little ones. For example, we have a Royal Navy exchange pilot flying with us, and I was eager to talk to him about some good British beers when he checked in. His response was "I don't know, I mostly drink Stella or Budweiser." Same thing back in Deutschland. It seems everyone drinks Becks or those freaking "alcopops."

Then again, the traditional regional/local breweries are hanging in there. I talk to my Uncle Fritz and cousins Xaver and Tobias (I swear to God I'm not making those names up) at Rother Brau (http://www.rotherbraeu.de/Willkommen.html if you're interested) and they're doing great. We'll see what happens.

I can't believe this is the first time I've read this....

I have to agree with 99% of the comments made here.

I also have to state that without a doubt...German beer is some of the best in the world!!! Hands down!! :rockin:

On the other hand I know that they are limited in style. This is not an unknown fact. IMO the strict adherence to the Reinhietsgebot is NOT a bad thing either. If you like what's available then by all means support it.

The lack of variety, versus the Belgiums for example, is the Germans (brewing) downfall.

This does not mean their beer is bad in any way.

I, for one, will continue to drink German-style beer till the day I die...PROMISE!!!

This does not mean I will not sample other (countries) brews at all...except maybe American... Being a homebrewer who has lived in Germany for 9 years I have grown to like (only) full bodied brews.

No arguments here...do whatever floats your boat...but when you run out REAL BEER you may feel like a Pilgrim getting off the boat saying "This doesn't look like Virginia".
However, should we ever meet...the first round's on me!! PROSIT!!!!

The Reinheitsgebot was repealed over 20 years ago in response to a European Court of Justice ruling that pretty much stated that the application of domestic trade laws to EU beer imports is illegal, allowing any beer produced in the EU to be sold as "beer" in Germany. German brewers are now allowed to use various additives in beers, but rarely do so for traditional reasons. Some ingredients, like fresh fruit, are still off-limits if you want to call the product "Bier".

Many Germans have a very small number of beers they identify with and tend to stick with it throughout their lives (e.g. Koelsch in the Rheinland) as part of their culture and heritage, which explains why non-Reinheitsgebot beers make up only a minute share of the domestic market over there. Sadly, they tend to be much more open to non-beer drinks like Alcopops (which, I believe, are produced with hard liquor instead of a malt base, as they are in the US, although this is changing because of taxation laws).



If you read German, this article summarizes the current situation very well:

http://www.bierundwir.de/geschichte/bier-reinheitsgebot-heute.htm

Klainmeister said:

So anyways, EdWort and homebrewer_99 (You're the other German fiends on here I believe), do you find this to be the same or have I just become homesick because I haven't brewed in 4 months? My first time visiting Germany was my inspiration to start brewing, and now that I've developed a palate, I think i like the beers back home more. I feel like I sinned or something...

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No argument here. Germany makes execellent beers, but city to city, you will find a Helles, Pils, Hefe, Kristal, Dunkel, etc. All very similar, and 99% very good.

The good ol' USA offers much more in a selection of beers, totally different. I enjoy the regional differences and if I ever move back to Germany, I think I would be brewing some American IPA's, Pale Ales, & such just for fun.

homebrewer_99 said:

I, for one, will continue to drink German-style beer till the day I die...PROMISE!!!

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+1 Those Germans know how to party too!

Yes, Yes, it seems we [now] rule the beer world. My question is does the rest of the world know it? That is to say, I've always wondered how many of our best beers are ever exported to Europe, for instance. Does Sierra Nevada Pale make it over seas? Rogue? Stone? Dogfish Head? I would think Sam Adams would have the best shot, being the biggest, but I just have no idea. Would drinking an Arrogant Bastard or 60 Minute in England be equivalent, in terms of exclusivity, to drinking Hobgoblin or Santa's Butt here in the States?

homebrewer_99 said:

This does not mean I will not sample other (countries) brews at all...except maybe American... Being a homebrewer who has lived in Germany for 9 years I have grown to like (only) full bodied brews.

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You don't drink American beer??

MrFebtober said:

Yes, Yes, it seems we [now] rule the beer world. My question is does the rest of the world know it? That is to say, I've always wondered how many of our best beers are ever exported to Europe, for instance. Does Sierra Nevada Pale make it over seas? Rogue? Stone? Dogfish Head? I would think Sam Adams would have the best shot, being the biggest, but I just have no idea. Would drinking an Arrogant Bastard or 60 Minute in England be equivalent, in terms of exclusivity, to drinking Hobgoblin or Santa's Butt here in the States?

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I for one have looked for anything from the states over the last two months and couldn't find jack ****. The family I am living with had another student from Oregon come live here and there's a Deschutes Mirror Pond in the fridge...damn it...i wish I wasn't so polite...

Yay! America is best!! LOL!

Well, so much for my dream of going to Europe to sample the great variety of beers they have... Still, a visit to Germany migh tstill yield a nice selection of breads, cheeses, sausages, and even great beer.

I'd have to agree with the postings here. Hard to imagine why people over there wouldn't want to try all kids of different beers. I'm workign on trying all different kinds and figure I'm only about half-way there (of the ones I can get at my local beer store) and they keep coming out with more beers all the time!

If you shipped a container full of the US' best beers to Germany, they would sit on shelves for 10,000 years before they were all drank. The Germans (in general) think ales are inferior and offensive. Most will not even take a sip or a taste (in my experience). I think that is why they are not exported. That and, all the good American beer is produced by micros who can barely produce enough beer to distribute throughout the US, much less ship the goods over an ocean.

Homercidal said:

Yay! America is best!! LOL!

Well, so much for my dream of going to Europe to sample the great variety of beers they have... Still, a visit to Germany migh tstill yield a nice selection of breads, cheeses, sausages, and even great beer.

I'd have to agree with the postings here. Hard to imagine why people over there wouldn't want to try all kids of different beers. I'm workign on trying all different kinds and figure I'm only about half-way there (of the ones I can get at my local beer store) and they keep coming out with more beers all the time!

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It is still very worth the trip. The difference between beer from the source is never as pronounced as it is with import beers. I don't know if they brew the exports differently, but the taste is definately there. Plus, many of the best beers in the world are still produced outside the US.

Having just returned from two weeks of daily and nightly beer drinking in Berlin my $0.02 is this - if you like the German styles of beer you get in America, you'd love them over there. They are fresher and there is a huge variety..... of brands. As fars as styles go it's pils, pils, pils, pils, hefe, dunkel, pils, pils, pils, with an ocassional helles or bock and then more pils. Someone mentioned that the beers are quality and I have to agree with this. I did not have a "bad" beer while I was there. The northern region of Germany is mostly pils and it is really obvious when you are there. All (most) of the hefes and dunkels are brewed down south in the Bayern region - Berlin is nearly exclusively pils.
I tried to tour a brewery while there - there are only two sizeable breweries in Berlin to my knowledge - Schultheiss / Kindl and one called Behrer (?). I and my relatives tried to set up tours and the Schultheiss only does tours on certain days and while I was there the timing and location didn't work out. Both days we tried to schedule the tours were filled with British groups. I did go to two brewpubs - both in old east Germany by the way, and both were outstanding. The styles were not typical of the area, the Meierei Brewery in Potsdam was making rotbier and maibock, and the George Brauhaus was making an unfiltered helles and dunkel. All the fresh beers were outstanding but very similar to the commercial brands available.
Someone also mentioned that the Germans aren't very adventurous in relation to thier beer and I did find this to be true. When our relatives come here they drink Bud and MGD and love it. They will drink my home brews and enjoy them but aren't real open to ales in general. I try to get them to drink SNPA or even Sam Adams and invariably they don't lke the big flavor hoppy style beers. One of our uncles also laughed when I told him how popular and how much respect the Belgian beers get amongst the homebrew community in America - he referred to them as "sour $h1t beers". Go figure.
One other thing - I notice that the Kolsch style gets ragged on a lot on here (maybe it's just my perception) but I tried several Kolsches while over there and really liked them. They are light and tasty - a good summer beer. Just my humble opinion.

I rag on Kolsch not so much of beer, but the culture that comes with it. The bragging that the people do in Koln over the beer is obnoxious for a beer that is 2.4% and taste like a watered down pils. One guy bragged to me he could drink 10 liters in a night...and duh...so could I, but with any other style it's impossible. You head only 30 minutes north to Dusseldorf and get some Altbier, now that's a full-bodied beer!

Klainmeister said:

I rag on Kolsch not so much of beer, but the culture that comes with it. The bragging that the people do in Koln over the beer is obnoxious for a beer that is 2.4% and taste like a watered down pils. One guy bragged to me he could drink 10 liters in a night...and duh...so could I, but with any other style it's impossible. You head only 30 minutes north to Dusseldorf and get some Altbier, now that's a full-bodied beer!

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Koelsch has 4.8% alcohol on average - whatever you are talking about doesn't sound anything like a Koelsch.

ArcaneXor said:

Koelsch has 4.8% alcohol on average - whatever you are talking about doesn't sound anything like a Koelsch.

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I was thinking that too. Kolschen have some wheat - they shouldn't taste anything like pilsen.