First Partial Mash, BIAB

Brewer's Friend 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
B

bosster01

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
216
Reaction score
23
Hello!

I'm going to be doing my first partial mash using NB's Buffalo Sweat clone kit. I plan on doing this tomorrow.

QUESTION for you guys:
I've attached the instruction sheet. I don't currently have any sort of mash tun other than my old 5 gallon pot in addition my to 10 gallon kettle. I plan on doing the boil in the 10 gallon kettle and the mash in the 5 gallon pot.

My question is - the instructions say to boil only 6.5 quarts for the mash, and then add more water after mash out for sparging. Do I have to do this? Or could I just mash using the full volume that I typically boil (usually 5.5 gallons)? Unsure how this would effect sugar extraction, but curious if this step was needed.

If I do have to do this mini mash with extra sparge water - do you guys recommend putting my oven to 156 and just leaving it in there for the hour of mashing? - if so how often should I be checking the temp to make sure stuff is going okay... or do I just leave it in there and hope for the best?

Any other general tips? I've attached the NB published instructions and I was basically planning on just listening to those unless someone gives me ways that are better/easier.

ALSO - I'm planning on just using plain old tap water. My water tastes good and I haven't had any issues with extract brewing. I understand that pH and ion concentrations can affect mash extraction. How big of a deal is this? Am I safe to do this kit to learn the process without understanding my water chemistries and having pH testing equipment etc?

Thanks!

View attachment PM-BuffaloSweatStout_Pro_TG.pdf
 
I can't open the attachment. But I would not PM mash the small amount of grain in the full batch volume. You could use one kettle, mash then top up with more water and the extract as well.

A warm oven will help you keep temps stable, but rdwhahb and keep the temps 150-160 and you'll be fine.
 
bosster01 said:
Hello!

Any other general tips? I've attached the NB published instructions and I was basically planning on just listening to those unless someone gives me ways that are better/easier.

ALSO - I'm planning on just using plain old tap water. My water tastes good and I haven't had any issues with extract brewing. I understand that pH and ion concentrations can affect mash extraction. How big of a deal is this? Am I safe to do this kit to learn the process without understanding my water chemistries and having pH testing equipment etc?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I assume the kit is for 5 gallons? The pdf doesn't seem to say specifically.

You could mash with 4.25 gallons of water, (3.15 qt/lb of grain) to bring yourself up to a total 4.66 gallon mash volume (according to Green bay's mash calc.). That should hold temp pretty well for 40-60 mins. Then put another 2.5 gallons of sparge water to your BK and heat to 170. After mash is done, transfer your grain bag to the bk and dunk sparge for a few mins before pulling the bag o' grain and adding the rest of your mashed wort. That should put you at roughly 6.5 gallons for pre-boil volumes.

Then proceed as normal.

As for water chem stuff. It depends on who you ask.

I made AG beer for a year or two before thinking about water chem and I made pretty good beer. Now I have seen efficiency boosts and clearer beer flavor from correcting PH and shooting for specific water profiles.
 
jwalk4 said:
I assume the kit is for 5 gallons? The pdf doesn't seem to say specifically.

You could mash with 4.25 gallons of water, (3.15 qt/lb of grain) to bring yourself up to a total 4.66 gallon mash volume (according to Green bay's mash calc.). That should hold temp pretty well for 40-60 mins. Then put another 2.5 gallons of sparge water to your BK and heat to 170. After mash is done, transfer your grain bag to the bk and dunk sparge for a few mins before pulling the bag o' grain and adding the rest of your mashed wort. That should put you at roughly 6.5 gallons for pre-boil volumes.

Then proceed as normal.

As for water chem stuff. It depends on who you ask.

I made AG beer for a year or two before thinking about water chem and I made pretty good beer. Now I have seen efficiency boosts and clearer beer flavor from correcting PH and shooting for specific water profiles.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response and yes it's for 5 gallons. What's the use of a mash calculator?

That's an interesting idea so you're saying mash with the larger volume and instead of pouring hot water over the bag I could just dunk my bag in the hot water?

6.5 gallons seems high to me. I typically only boil off .5 - 1 gallon in an hour on my propane burner.

How does altering the volumes affect extraction etc?
 
wilserbrewer said:
I can't open the attachment. But I would not PM mash the small amount of grain in the full batch volume. You could use one kettle, mash then top up with more water and the extract as well.

A warm oven will help you keep temps stable, but rdwhahb and keep the temps 150-160 and you'll be fine.
Click to expand...

Hello! Thanks for the response.

The guide says to start with 6.5 quarts for the initial mash and then 5 quarts of sparge water. So total volume will only be 11.5 quarts (less than 3 gallons). So then I'd have to top off the water to get me to my 6 gallon pre boil volume that I like.

What I'm worried about is maintaining the heat for 6.5 quarts. I don't have a real mash tun yet and I feel like there will be a lot of temp variability with that volume.

Unfortunately my stove lowest temp is 170.

Would there be any downside for me to mash with the recommended 6.5 quarts of water and then for sparging to "dunk sparge" the bag in my boil volume?

Theoretically then I could just use my old 5 gallon pot for the mash tun and then use my boil kettle as both a BK & a lauter tun.

Thanks for the time/tips.

Another question - what is so crucial above sparge volume and strike volume? What is the downside of using too much for the strike volume? I could see that using too little sparge would reduce efficiency, but how would having extra strike volume affect things?

Because it would be nice if I could for example have 4 gallon strike volume for my mash then add 2 gallons for my sparge.
 
bosster01 said:
How does altering the volumes affect extraction etc?
Click to expand...

Well, traditional BIAB means full volume (all the water) in the pot with the grains for mashing. Therefore, just by going to BIAB throws traditional mash ratios (1.25 or 1.5 qt/lb) out the window. Extraction rates vary. Some get 50%, some get 80%. For me, the more critical aspect would be maintaining your mash temp. So more mass (more water +grain) for mash = stable mash temp.
 
Also, full-volume mashing with a small amount of grain may take your pH higher than you'd want. This is something I worry about, so I actually mash in water volumes for "traditional" mashing in a thin mash and then sparge. As soon as I figure out how much, if any, acidulated malt I might need, then I won't worry so much and (one day) do an actual full-volume mash.
 
jwalk4 said:
Well, traditional BIAB means full volume (all the water) in the pot with the grains for mashing. Therefore, just by going to BIAB throws traditional mash ratios (1.25 or 1.5 qt/lb) out the window. Extraction rates vary. Some get 50%, some get 80%. For me, the more critical aspect would be maintaining your mash temp. So more mass (more water +grain) for mash = stable mash temp.
Click to expand...

So how specifically would you suggest I proceed based on that? Since I'm doing a partial mash... Would there be any negative consequence of mashing with three gallons, then dunk sparging with 3 gallons and adding that total volume to my boil kettle for the extract addition and boil?
 
bosster01 said:
Would there be any downside for me to mash with the recommended 6.5 quarts of water and then for sparging to "dunk sparge" the bag in my boil volume?

Theoretically then I could just use my old 5 gallon pot for the mash tun and then use my boil kettle as both a BK & a lauter tun.
Click to expand...

What you propose, I think, is how I would go about it. PROVIDED that you can actually boil that amount of wort (energy-wise) and can cool down that amount of wort.
 
slym2none said:
Also, full-volume mashing with a small amount of grain may take your pH higher than you'd want. This is something I worry about, so I actually mash in water volumes for "traditional" mashing in a thin mash and then sparge. As soon as I figure out how much, if any, acidulated malt I might need, then I won't worry so much and (one day) do an actual full-volume mash.
Click to expand...

I don't know why I didn't consider pH good point thanks.

So you use like 2 liter per lb grain? Then how much do you sparge? Would there be any downside for dunk sparging with my remaining volume to get to my preboil volume? Or is it better to sparge with smaller volumes too?
 
jwalk4 said:
What you propose, I think, is how I would go about it. PROVIDED that you can actually boil that amount of wort (energy-wise) and can cool down that amount of wort.
Click to expand...

Okay thank you for your input. I do have a propane burner, 10 g kettle, and a wort chiller.
 
bosster01 said:
So how specifically would you suggest I proceed based on that? Since I'm doing a partial mash... Would there be any negative consequence of mashing with three gallons, then dunk sparging with 3 gallons and adding that total volume to my boil kettle for the extract addition and boil?
Click to expand...

This is basically what I currently do. I keep my sparge water in a seperate pot in the oven held at 170 (oven only goes that low). I actually pull out about 1/2 gallon in a pitcher to do a pour over sparge at the end, too. Only difference being that I do 2.5 gallons each rather than 3, since my kettle only holds 5.75. Last brew, my mash efficiency was 80%.
 
bosster01 said:
I don't know why I didn't consider pH good point thanks.

So you use like 2 liter per lb grain? Then how much do you sparge? Would there be any downside for dunk sparging with my remaining volume to get to my preboil volume? Or is it better to sparge with smaller volumes too?
Click to expand...

That's about right for the amount of water, maybe a little less. The last time I did a mini-mash, I sparged all the way up to my boil volume, but I do small batches (2.5G/app. 11 liters) so it didn't take much. I batch sparge (dunk) mainly because it's easy with such a small amount of grain & I feel that I am getting better efficiency that way, but there is no scientific evidence to back my thoughts up. It's just how I like to do things.

I imagine there is no harm in sparging all the way to full-volume, but I also imagine the grains will be pretty well rinsed of any loose sugars by then.

Good luck, man!
 
So with people who all grain biab are they able to full volume boil because there are more grains so the pH issue is minimized? So also in all grain biab does that mean no sparge?

Also how much water does the grain absorb? Do you just add extra water preboil to account for water lost in the absorbed grain?
 
bosster01 said:
So with people who all grain biab are they able to full volume boil because there are more grains so the pH issue is minimized? So also in all grain biab does that mean no sparge?
Click to expand...

PH is primarily a mash issue although PH in sparging is important too. So the boil isn't a factor. Tap water PH is somewhere before 6.5-8.5, malts can bring down the mash PH, and the ideal range is between 5.2-5.7(8). But you can get a fine conversion without sweating the PH (my opinion). I BIABed for a year or two without checking and I got inefficiencies up in the 70s, so not too bad.

Yes. Full volume BIAB means no sparge.

bosster01 said:
Also how much water does the grain absorb? Do you just add extra water preboil to account for water lost in the absorbed grain?
Click to expand...

When squeezing the bag, grain absorption is very little.
 
Even with a full volume of grains, sometimes you have to add acid to get the pH down. That is where the acidulated malt (sauermalz) comes in. It provides the necessary acids while you're mashing. There are other ways, of course.

If you are going full-volume BIAB mashing, then yes, no sparging is necessary - from what I understand.

There is a calculator or chart somewhere that shows how much water is absorbed, but it all depends, really. You can squeeze/twist the bag to get more water (& sugars) out - some do, some don't. But yes, you have to account for the loss of water to the grains due to swelling.
 
Wanted to thank everyone for the advice before my brew day begins here.

My official plan is I'm going to use 2 qts / lb of grain for the mash. So I will be using a "thin mash" but I think it will be best for me in terms of temperature stability, until I get a mash tun.

Does anyone have recommendations on building a mash tun? I heard buying those sports coolers that are circular in shape are easy.. and then you can just take off the spigot and put a beer spigot on? Any other suggestions in that regard?
- I found this guide: http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/how-to/g1580/how-to-build-your-own-home-brewing-mash-tun/

I see they use a braided hose to filter the wort. Does that mean I wouldn't need to buy a false bottom at all? Any tips in that regard? What's the best way to prevent grains from getting into my wort.
 
You can make your own filter/screen for the mash tun out of a hot water heater hose. Just pull the plastic lining out with pliers and crimp one end of the steel exterior. Plenty of videos of folks doing this on the youtubeses.
 
Dirt_McGirt said:
You can make your own filter/screen for the mash tun out of a hot water heater hose. Just pull the plastic lining out with pliers and crimp one end of the steel exterior. Plenty of videos of folks doing this on the youtubeses.
Click to expand...

That's what they did in the link I posted. I just wasn't sure if that totally replaced the "false bottom" or if I still needed one.

Just had an idea too - I could use a BIAB bag in my mash tun instead of a false bottom in addition to the hot water heater hose. Anyone ever tried that?

Thank you!
 
I believe a proper false bottom drains faster than a mesh hose, but costs far more.

And yeah, there are plenty of folks who use a brew bag in a cooler mash tun. There's a thread about it on the first page of the BIAB subforum, I think, and the guy from the Brulosophy blog has done it effectively in the past.

Folks have varying opinions on what works best or is worth your time/money, but bottom line is that there's lots of ways to skin a cat, if you'lol pardon the expression. Anyway, if you do go Brew bag in the cooler tun, you may want to get a custom sized bag from wilsner bags - just google it.
 
Take pics of your brewday! I hope it goes well!

As for MT screens, I use a wilserbrewer bag in a Coleman Extreme cooler. But I have also used SS braid with good results.

One + of a bag is there is lliterally 0 chances of a stuck sparge. However, because of my cooler top on the bag, I usually see 1-2 more degrees drop over an hour than I would with SS braid.
 
Brew day is over!

I ended up using 2 qts water per lb of grain for the mash and then I dunk sparked the grain for 10 minutes in my sparge water that was at 170.

I checked the mash 3x during the rest and it maintained temp very well with only 2 degree loss from 158 to 156 over the hour. I used a towel to insulate the kettle.

Few problems from the day:
1. While we had the grain bag in the strainer sitting over the boil kettle my friend accidentally knocked it in the kettle for a second... we quickly picked it out and had to discard the liquid in the grain for fear of tannin extraction.

2. I had a small boil over for the first time ever.

3. My friend accidentally stuck a unsanitized thermometer in the chilled wort.

4. I needed to add 1 gallon of water post boil to bring volume up.


My OG was like 1.064 with a target of 1.057. Not corrected for temp, wort was at 70F.

I pitched a 1 liter starter culture, and this morning it's already bubbling.

One issue with this kit is they give you a 1 lb bag of lactose when the recipe calls for .375 lb... I don't have a food scale so I Googled it and found that like 2.2 c in a lb of lactose so I just used about half the bag.

I also didn't use my aerator this time. I decided to just agitate the cooled wort.

We shall see how things turn out. Biggest concerns I have at this time are tannins and infection. Anyone have a description of what too many tannin will taste like?

20160131_154523.jpg


20160131_155234.jpg


20160131_170214.jpg
 
Woot! Good work!

I don't think you'll have to sweat the tannin extraction, especially if you (perhaps unnecessarily) tossed the absorbed wort.

The unsanitized thermometer is a different story, however. While it doesn't guarantee an infection, it does increase the risk. Be that as it may, I'm sure you'll still be fine. You'll know if your FG drops way below your target, or you get scuzzies floating on the top.

If you're interested in making a small investment in a small cooler, I read this cool article from BYO a while back. I'm going to do it full-boil styles for smaller (2.5-3 gallon) batches.
http://byo.com/malt/item/507-countertop-partial-mashing

Cheers!
 
jwalk4 said:
Woot! Good work!

I don't think you'll have to sweat the tannin extraction, especially if you (perhaps unnecessarily) tossed the absorbed wort.

The unsanitized thermometer is a different story, however. While it doesn't guarantee an infection, it does increase the risk. Be that as it may, I'm sure you'll still be fine. You'll know if your FG drops way below your target, or you get scuzzies floating on the top.

If you're interested in making a small investment in a small cooler, I read this cool article from BYO a while back. I'm going to do it full-boil styles for smaller (2.5-3 gallon) batches.
http://byo.com/malt/item/507-countertop-partial-mashing

Cheers!
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tip!

Fermentation started up nicely, but less Krausen than I'm used to at 16 hours since pitching.

Have it temp controlled at 65F

20160201_163745.jpg
 
1. Tannin extraction depends on too high of pH (over 6.0 seems to be considered the pH where it starts) and temps over about 170. You shouldn't have that high of a pH so the 170 temp wouldn't matter. Decoction mashes normally boil part of the mash to raise the mash temp to the next step and that boiling doesn't extract tannins.
2. Boil overs usually occur just as the hot break gets started. You have to watch that pot carefully and be ready to turn the heat down.
3. Infecting beer in the primary is difficult because the beer is too acidic for most bacteria and the yeast will quickly begin to produce CO2 which further limits the bacteria as most require oxygen to reproduce.
4. Practice will get you the amount of water to start with so you don't have to add later but it shouldn't hurt anything to do so. Unlike 300 years ago, our drinking water has little bacteria in it that can infect your beer so adding it after the boil shouldn't be a problem. Watching how much heat you apply to keep the wort boiling will help as it takes energy to turn water into steam to get it to boil off. You don't need a really strong boil so just keep it a slow rolling boil.
5. Recipes are not chemical formulas. A little difference in the amounts of ingredients won't ruin the beer but it might not be exactly like expected. It will still be good beer unless you really mess up with the quantities.
6. It takes a certain amount of yeast to ferment your beer to get good flavors. How you get there can vary. If you pitch a big starter your yeast won't have to multiply as much in the beer which can change the flavor profile. Pitching a smaller amount with good aeration will get the same amount of yeast because the yeast will use the oxygen that you added to multiply. Even a very different amount of yeast may not make a big difference in the flavor. Take a look at the results of this experiment, paying close attention to the amounts of yeast pitched. http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/
 
RM-MN said:
1. Tannin extraction depends on too high of pH (over 6.0 seems to be considered the pH where it starts) and temps over about 170. You shouldn't have that high of a pH so the 170 temp wouldn't matter. Decoction mashes normally boil part of the mash to raise the mash temp to the next step and that boiling doesn't extract tannins.
2. Boil overs usually occur just as the hot break gets started. You have to watch that pot carefully and be ready to turn the heat down.
3. Infecting beer in the primary is difficult because the beer is too acidic for most bacteria and the yeast will quickly begin to produce CO2 which further limits the bacteria as most require oxygen to reproduce.
4. Practice will get you the amount of water to start with so you don't have to add later but it shouldn't hurt anything to do so. Unlike 300 years ago, our drinking water has little bacteria in it that can infect your beer so adding it after the boil shouldn't be a problem. Watching how much heat you apply to keep the wort boiling will help as it takes energy to turn water into steam to get it to boil off. You don't need a really strong boil so just keep it a slow rolling boil.
5. Recipes are not chemical formulas. A little difference in the amounts of ingredients won't ruin the beer but it might not be exactly like expected. It will still be good beer unless you really mess up with the quantities.
6. It takes a certain amount of yeast to ferment your beer to get good flavors. How you get there can vary. If you pitch a big starter your yeast won't have to multiply as much in the beer which can change the flavor profile. Pitching a smaller amount with good aeration will get the same amount of yeast because the yeast will use the oxygen that you added to multiply. Even a very different amount of yeast may not make a big difference in the flavor. Take a look at the results of this experiment, paying close attention to the amounts of yeast pitched. http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/
Click to expand...

Wow, thanks for all the useful info!

I've never used wyeast 1098 before - but I'm a little concerned about the small amount of krausen I have. It's bubbling away, but typically I have a couple inches of krausen and this time as you can see in the photo I barely have any.. and it's actually a little less compared to yesterday.

I'll wait a week and then check the gravity - hopefully it fully attenuates.
 
bosster01 said:
Wow, thanks for all the useful info!

I've never used wyeast 1098 before - but I'm a little concerned about the small amount of krausen I have. It's bubbling away, but typically I have a couple inches of krausen and this time as you can see in the photo I barely have any.. and it's actually a little less compared to yesterday.

I'll wait a week and then check the gravity - hopefully it fully attenuates.
Click to expand...

If you had that in a bucket fermenter that small amount of krausen wouldn't bother you....because you couldn't see it. Instead you could worry about the lack of bubbles. :D

Every ferment is different and different yeasts react differently to the wort and the temperature. Save your worries until you take a gravity test in a few more days. That will tell the true story.:mug:
 
I bottled this last night. So like I said earlier my OG was a tad high 1.064 with goal of 1.057 - and I'd guess this is because I didn't have a food scale so I kind of guessed on the amount of lactose.

My fermentation was extremely quick with not as much krausen as I'm used to. Fermentation was essentially complete within 3 days.

Anyways after 3 weeks in primary it's been bottled with 3/4 c of corn sugar for priming.

My final numbers:
OG: 1.064
FG: 1.026
ABV = 4.99%

Idk what the heck happened, but for some reason it didn't ferment all the way down. I was wondering if this extra could all be from the lactose? Or if I had under attenuation.

Anyways traditional buffalo sweat is right at 5% so maybe this will be perfect?

One other thing about fermentation - I may have had a small infection. I had a lacy very faint white mold looking thing across the top of the fermenter. It wasn't confluent and it was extremely faint/hard to see without looking closely.

The beer tasted great uncarbed and warm though.
 
The early stages of fermentation are usually quick with ale yeast. 3 days isn't uncommon but that is just the early stage where the yeast are eating up the sugars but in that phase the yeast also creates other compounds and given a bit more time it will break these down too but while doing so they give off no CO2 so there is no indication that anything is going on.

You could have bottled earlier if the hydrometer showed no changes over a 3 day period but leaving it longer lets more yeast settle out so you don't get as much in the bottle.

You'll often see some bubbles rafting on the surface when the ferment it done. That is normal and not a sigh of infection. Infections will often have larger bubbles and a pellicle forming on the surface.

Get a scale. You'll need one soon anyway. Without knowing how much lactose you put in you can't calculate what your FG should have been. Since lactose is unfermentable by beer yeast, any you add will raise the FG.
 
This beer ended up tasting great after 3 weeks of bottling conditioning. Tastes just like buffalo sweat. Super smooth, easy to drink, very tasty.

No complaints. Carbonated perfectly.

The website won't let me upload a picture since this update... once that gets worked out I will!

Thanks everyone for the help.

Planning on doing this again with vanilla in the future.
 

Similar threads

mac_1103
Reasons not to brew high gravity and dilute?
Replies
22
Views
1K
mac_1103
mac_1103
F
mashing a small amount of grain in a large amount of water.
Replies
8
Views
1K
fluketamer
F
A
RO Water - starting with lower pH
Replies
30
Views
2K
jerrylotto
jerrylotto
Kornssj
BIAB Lemon Lime Hefeweizen (First Time Need Help)
Replies
25
Views
2K
Bobby_M
Bobby_M
F
another water calculation question
Replies
3
Views
474
IslandLizard
IslandLizard
wps-hbt2

Latest posts

Back
Top