When to make the jump?

When do I make that jump to all grain?

My birthday is coming up and that marks the 1 year anniversary of when I got my Mr. Beer brewing kit. I have long since abandoned those ingredients but have only been brewing 5 gallon extract batches using a 10 gallon kettle for about 4 batches one of which was my first infection. I have brewed 18 batches this year, including those 4 mentioned before, and am entering my first competition this week.

I am trying to figure out if now is a good time to make the move to all grain. I know that I will at some point. It is just something I want to do. I know some people will say that you don't have to, but I think it sounds like a lot of fun and an additional process I can get involved in. My only worry is that I would be running before I really know how to crawl or walk. Part of me would love to have no issues with my current processes and to have "learned all I needed" from extract before making the jump. I am not a fantastic brewer, but my only major mistake has been the infected batch. While recent, that was my only one and now serves as a great reminder. I'm also thinking that maybe I am over thinking this and that I think there are a whole lot of boxes to check before I make make the jump and in fact I have hit a lot of them and can move up.

I do not do yeast starters yet but plan on doing so soon. I also do not have an aeration system for my wort but will soon. Are these things that I should be doing before going all grain?

I would love some feedback about what you think a brewer should be able to do before they start worrying about mash temps and sparging and everything else with all grain. Or when you made that jump.

UHHH..Your a year late on starting all grain..I STARTED with a 20 gal all electric BIAB setup..Dont be turned off by thinking its over your head,its not.Its very simple with minimal equipment and will save you a ton of money on ingredients...Run don't walk to all grain

Ive never done a yeast starter nor do I have an aerator,still make great beer.As for mash temps,thats important and requires a spoon a thermometer and the will to stir...mighty simple

There's no checklist. There's no right or wrong order to learn things in. If you want to go for an AG batch, by all means go for it. Sure, it adds more steps which means more places you can make mistakes, but do a little homework ahead of time and you'll be just fine. The best time to switch is whatever time you feel the desire to do it.

Now, good fermentation temp control and good yeast health (with starters or otherwise) are more likely to improve the taste of your homebrew than mashing your own grain, but that wasn't the question you asked, now was it?

If it's of any help to you, I've never done an extract batch. I just pitched yeast on my 7th batch and they've all been all grain BIAB. I always considered it part of the experience. Not that extract is beneath me or anything, but I loved the intricacies of all grain from the beginning.

Just do it, I jumped in after 3-4 batches, nervous at first, yes, it's not hard.
I am by far not a precision brewer, Nor do I cook that way, I do what I feel like and produce some good beer and it's well received.
Will I reproduce a beer over and over, no, but I'm good with that.

Just go for it. i started with all grain, only time i mess with DME is for starters. Its really not hard, just adds more time to your brew day.

TallDan said:

There's no checklist. There's no right or wrong order to learn things in. If you want to go for an AG batch, by all means go for it. Sure, it adds more steps which means more places you can make mistakes, but do a little homework ahead of time and you'll be just fine. The best time to switch is whatever time you feel the desire to do it.

Now, good fermentation temp control and good yeast health (with starters or otherwise) are more likely to improve the taste of your homebrew than mashing your own grain, but that wasn't the question you asked, now was it?

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I didn't ask that question because I figured that out a while ago haha. After my second batch, I bought a chest freezer and a temp controller. I've also read that yeast book by Jamil and Chris White. Mostly over my head, but I know the concepts. I'd always love any and all tips if you have any though.

If I were to do it, what system would you recommend? I really don't have thousands to spend on a sculpture and I don't have the ability to make one.

Not that it's a contest, but I say this to show you how much experience you need to start all grain. I am 1 month and 25 days into brewing an I've already brewed 6 batches, 3 extract and 3 all grain, and I'm brewing a Hefeweizen tomorrow. I can't say that I've done everything correct, in fact I've messed up more than I've done things right. I have learned, like you have, and I'm moving forward. Each batch is better than the next, and all I can suggest is learn about grain what they are for and what they do to a beers structure, and don't trust every recipe that is out there. While mash temp is important, don't freak out if you don't hit the exact number you're shooting for, you'll learn. I'd personally rather shoot low than too high, don't want to kill/neutralize those enzymes. People are here to help, so "relax and have a Homebrew", then start brewing all grain.

jdemshki said:

If I were to do it, what system would you recommend? I really don't have thousands to spend on a sculpture and I don't have the ability to make one.

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BIAB is extremely cheap to do and you learn a lot, some never leave, a ten gallon cooler mashtun works great, I have a false bottom which I am a lot happier with then a screen I tried first.

j1n said:

Just go for it. i started with all grain, only time i mess with DME is for starters. Its really not hard, just adds more time to your brew day.

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And for me it has added a lot more time to my day but it's getting shorter and shorter each time

jdemshki said:

If I were to do it, what system would you recommend? I really don't have thousands to spend on a sculpture and I don't have the ability to make one.

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i dont have a sculpture, i just use my chest freezer and a step stool and place the coolers on them for mash in and fly sparge. the kettle is on the ground and i just use gravity. only down side to this is i have to then lift the kettle full of hot wort onto my burner. never had any issues though

BIAB all the way,minimal investment in equipment. Concord 20 gal pot for ten gal batch-youll never look back
7.5 gal plastic buckets for fermentation,FORGET CARBOYS----Heavy,slippery,more money and a ROYAL pain in the %ss to clean. And a bunch of little stuff LOL..I built a complete 30 amp 5500w electric setup from scratch for around $700

I did one extract kit just as a prof of concept before making the switch to all grain. I can happily say that it is easier than I thought it would be and I have made some great all grain beers. If you have brewed that many extracts and by the sound of it have learned the most important basic steps along the way I would say to go for it. All grain is a very rewarding and satisfying step in the brewing process and I am glad I made the jump as early as I did.

As far as gear goes it doesn't need to cost much at all. Like others have said, biab is low cost and easy to learn. Myself, I like building things and had about 6 coolers in the garage. I took one of the larger ones and after spending about $20 at the hardware store I made myself a manifold for it and it worked perfect the first time. It sounds like you have pretty much the rest of the gear you would need so just choose which mashing method you want to try and go for it. If you are anything like me you will be very glad you did.

Just do it!

I did 4 extracts then 4 partial mash then I went all grain. I have done some extracts since, in mid winter when I didn't want to brew outside.

Decide on what style you want to do. i.e. BIAB or HLT, MT, BK. etc. Then acquire the needed equipment and go...

It is no harder, it just requires more time and a little more attention.

For me it is most of all more fun.

Sampson11 said:

I did one extract kit just as a prof of concept before making the switch to all grain. I can happily say that it is easier than I thought it would be and I have made some great all grain beers. If you have brewed that many extracts and by the sound of it have learned the most important basic steps along the way I would say to go for it. All grain is a very rewarding and satisfying step in the brewing process and I am glad I made the jump as early as I did.



As far as gear goes it doesn't need to cost much at all. Like others have said, biab is low cost and easy to learn. Myself, I like building things and had about 6 coolers in the garage. I took one of the larger ones and after spending about $20 at the hardware store I made myself a manifold for it and it worked perfect the first time. It sounds like you have pretty much the rest of the gear you would need so just choose which mashing method you want to try and go for it. If you are anything like me you will be very glad you did.

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I definitely have most of the equipment. I have a bucket and a plastic carboy to ferment in, the fear of the glass spooked me, a 32,000 btu "fish cooker" which gets my wort boiling quite nicely, a brand new 10 gallon brew built kettle, a chest freezer that can fit two fermenters, even though I would love another so I could store and condition more stuff (these Southern California summers make the inside of my house unbearably hot) an stc style controller, and plenty of bottling equipment. Minus kegging, which I can't do because of space, I have the equipment. Now just to decide mashing technique, you're right.

If you're happy sticking with extract, then by all means stick with it. But if you're looking to "graduate" to all-grain, then you're ready. If you don't want to invest a ton, then you can go with BIAB, as others have said. It doesn't require anything other than a bag and perhaps a strainer or pulley setup and slightly bigger bag. With minimal additional investment, you can easily brew all-grain.

Extract or all-grain - neither is better than the other. It's a personal preference. Of course, all-grain gives you a lot of flexibility in brewing various recipes/grain bills, but extract beers can just as easily be award winners.

Good luck in wherever you decide to go!

Sounds like you need a whopping $15 bag from Wilserbrewer and your all set.
Figuring out mash...Stick bag in water-add grain-152 deg for an hour-pull out bag..Thats literally the difference between all grain and extract.

I started homebrewing in 1995, and after a lengthy hiatus returned at the beginning of the year. I was amazed at how much information about homebrewing is available online, including techniques such as BIAB, that made all-grain look so much simpler than before. After a couple extract batches earlier this year, I tried BIAB. While I was pleased with my results, it seemed that BIAB wasn't much less work than doing a regular infusion mash. $50 later I was the proud owner of an Igloo mash tun. I haven't looked back since, and after realizing how easy all-grain is I regretted not switching sooner. It makes brewing much more fun for me, and I don't feel like I'm "cheating" any more.
Looking online at all the fancy brewing equipment out there can be intimidating. You can also spend more on sculptures, industrial strength pots, temperature controllers, pumps, refrigeration equipment, etc. than NASA spends in a year. I can assure you that you don't need any of that crap to make excellent homebrew. Remember, it's "homebrewing", not "building a microbrewery that doesn't make any money."
I do 2.5 gallon batches at the moment, due mostly to the fact that I'm a little limited when it comes to space and I got a good deal on some Mr. Beer fermenters. My equipment consists of the following:
-A 5 gallon stainless pot, $20
-A 5 gallon Igloo beverage cooler with a ball valve and bazooka screen, $50 total
-A fermentation chamber that consists of a square ice chest (it was on sale and takes up less space than a rectangular one) with a bunch of freezable ice packs and a digital aquarium thermometer, about $40 total.
That's all you need in addition to your pre-existing brewing equipment, e.g. packaging equipment of some sort, sanitizer, etc.
There's also Option B: If you really want to start small, get a big (5 gallon) paint strainer bag from the hardware store for about $4 and try BIAB. It's not a bad place to start all-grain, in terms of expense and simplicity. Be sure to wash the bag thoroughly before using it, they smell kinda funny when they're new.
I also started using yeast starters when I switched to all-grain. All you really need is a 1 or 2 quart jar of some sort. You don't need a stir plate, but they are nice to have. I got an el cheapo Stir Starter for around 30 bucks on sale, and they do the job. Otherwise check eBay for a used lab quality magnetic stirrer, they go pretty cheap. Also get a 2 liter Erlenmeyer flask for about $20 if you get a stir plate. These are not things you need right away though. I do recommend using a starter, it's another thing that's much easier than I thought and I'm kicking myself for not using them sooner.
That's all I can think of at the moment. I do encourage you to try all-grain, I'm willing to bet you'll really enjoy it. Plus you beer will be better and cheaper.

<<<<ECHO>>>>

JUST DO IT! YOU ARE READY!!!

One more thing: I don't think you'll need an aeration system unless you're planning on making some very high gravity beer right away. Shaking does the job under most circumstances. (That's the next item on my equipment list though.)

Gerry_P said:

One more thing: I don't think you'll need an aeration system unless you're planning on making some very high gravity beer right away. Shaking does the job under most circumstances. (That's the next item on my equipment list though.)

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Maybe not, but I just did a 1.055 Scottish 80 export at 1.055 that took about 5 days to get going so some extra oxygen couldn't hurt.

So let's say that I want to do it and I don't want to do BIAB. Suggestions?

im saving my money for a brew easy. compact.

lllllllllTL,DR JUMP! Do it

jdemshki said:

So let's say that I want to do it and I don't want to do BIAB. Suggestions?

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Cooler with a manifold or bazooka screen is probably the cheapest/easiest way to get started with a mash tun.

Gavin C said:

lllllllllTL,DR JUMP! Do it

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I have no idea what you said haha.

How difficult is the build for a cooler mash tun? I'm not a very handy person. Is it worth it to buy a pre done one from more beer with a thermometer in it?

In all seriousness. All grain is super simple. Cheap too, if you are looking to convert, all you need is a (unblockable)manifold. ........BIAB

Have a peek at my signature for some ideas and recipe. (just the one for now)

Edit:Missed the "don't want BIAB bit. Disregard"

jdemshki said:

So let's say that I want to do it and I don't want to do BIAB. Suggestions?

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If you don't want to do BIAB, and are still going to be doing 5 gallon batches, you'll need the following additional equipment:

• a "mash tun" (insulated vessel in which you steep the grain to extract sugars)
• a "hot liquor tank" (a second pot to heat "sparge" water in after you've drained the "first runnings" into your boil kettle).

First a quick note on all grain brewing process, you may know this but it took me a while to figure it out and I was somewhat intimidated, largely because of all the specialized terminology involved.

• You "mash" (essentially steep) all of your milled grain in a set quantity of water (generally 1.25-1.75 quarts per lb of grain) at a set temp (generally in the 140-160 range depending on what your making) for a set time (generally 60 mins). Same process as steeping specialty grains you've done for your extract brews, just in a different amount of water, lower temp, and longer time.
• You then drain off the wort you've created into your brew pot. This is the "first runnings."
• But your "first runnings" will not be nearly enough to constitute your full boil volume, so you'll then add a calculated amount of "sparge water" (heated to some higher temp, I use 190°F per Denny Conn) to the mash tun so that when you drain that off into the brew pot, you've hopefully got your full boil volume.
• You can figure out how much sparge water to use with formulas or by directly measuring the volume of your first runnings. Regardless, hopefully it's clear that you'll need a second pot (the "hot liquor tank") to heat/hold the sparge water because your brew pot will already have the first runnings in it.

For the mash tun, a cooler does the job nicely. I use a 10 gallon coleman drink cooler (DIY instructions here, or do like I did and buy a conversion kit like this one) and it's been great. But as I understand it you'll get exactly the same results using a rectangular cooler like the Coleman Xtreme and they're often cheaper (and much easier to find used on craigslist). Either way you'll want to build or buy a braid or screen of some kind (I use the screen happily) to filter the wort from the grain as you're draining your mash tun.

For the "hot liquor tank," if you've got an old 5 gallon pot lying around that will work for most beers, but if you're going to buy one I'd recommend this cheap 32 quart tamale steamer from Walmart. It's thin and feels cheap but doesn't matter, you'll just be using it to heat water up to 170°F-190°F.

And that's really all there is to it!

I went from mr.beer to all grain that was my experience. Now I won a ff league to get all my equipment which cost upward of 600$ and I use a 10gal round igloo cooler, but I bought a ss 10 gal pot and a 5 gal pot and I went big and went to jay bird to buy a nice custom false bottom and a custom immersion chiller forget the company, I did get the aeration system from northern brewer with the wand, I love it I hated shaking the carboy, then bought a refractometer, a homebrew kit which came with buckets and all the other stuff, auto siphon, bottling siphon etc. it adds up even for a diy simple way but there were a couple things I wanted top notch like the immersion chiller and false bottom. Oh there's also the propane burner Bayou brand I bought. It just adds up but I don't see me needing new stuff since I've had positive results with my equipment, sure it'd be nice to pump from mlt to kettle have a whirlpool etc but I find the results I've had are fine on a simple system but it does cost a lot to start out. I figure I can make a IPa for 40$ total otherwise id be spending 90-100$ for the same mount of beer so it pays you back, I do 5 go batches. Oh I also bought 4 glass car boys 2 5 gal and 2 6.5 gal and those are expensive but I like em gives me 3 fermenters with two for secondary's.

jdemshki said:

I do not do yeast starters yet but plan on doing so soon. I also do not have an aeration system for my wort but will soon. Are these things that I should be doing before going all grain?

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Since we're talking, these are both good things to address (yeast first IMO), either now as you shift over to all grain or in the immediate future.

Assuming you use liquid yeasts, there's pretty broad consensus that using a starter will get you better results. You can go cheap and easy, make your starter in a gallon jar and just shake it up every so often. Or spend $45 for a StirStarter (I broke my fancy 2L Erlenmeyer Flask and now just use my gallon jar on top of the StirStarter).

I've been using an O2 wand system for a while now but can't say for certain whether it has improved my beer (I've made enough improvements tom my brewing over time that it's difficult to compare back). So I'd put this at the back of the list behind yeast starters and all grain brewing. Here's a thread discussing various options, I posted my preference there.

I started with AG. It's not that hard. I love the book Brew Better Beer which gives great basic AG instructions with pictures to help - this gave me the confidence to go straight to AG.

jdemshki said:

Maybe not, but I just did a 1.055 Scottish 80 export at 1.055 that took about 5 days to get going so some extra oxygen couldn't hurt.

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Hey, another Scotch ale fan! Were you using the McEwan's strain and a starter? I've never found that strain to be particularly slow, considering my low 60s fermentation temps. White labs recommends a bit higher temps than Wyeast for some reason. I've done 2 wee heavies and an 80/- within the past few months using Wyeast/WL/WL respectively, and all were finished in a couple weeks without additional aeration. I will say that the Scotch strain takes a while to hit its stride during conditioning, around a month in my experience.

Btw, when I pitch my yeast I decant almost all of the starter (the non-yeast part, of course), add some of my wort, and swirl that around for a couple minutes. Then I pitch into the fermenter and shake that. I'm probably giving my buddies (get it? yeast? BUDdies? Cuz, you know, they reproduce by...ah never mind) a little more air that way.

jdemshki said:

So let's say that I want to do it and I don't want to do BIAB. Suggestions?

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I would suggest the list of equipment/prices in my earlier post.

Gerry_P said:

Hey, another Scotch ale fan! Were you using the McEwan's strain and a starter? I've never found that strain to be particularly slow, considering my low 60s fermentation temps. White labs recommends a bit higher temps than Wyeast for some reason. I've done 2 wee heavies and an 80/- within the past few months using Wyeast/WL/WL respectively, and all were finished in a couple weeks without additional aeration. I will say that the Scotch strain takes a while to hit its stride during conditioning, around a month in my experience.



Btw, when I pitch my yeast I decant almost all of the starter (the non-yeast part, of course), add some of my wort, and swirl that around for a couple minutes. Then I pitch into the fermenter and shake that. I'm probably giving my buddies (get it? yeast? BUDdies? Cuz, you know, they reproduce by...ah never mind) a little more air that way.

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I'm really trying to broaden my horizons and the one scotch ale I had before was awesome. I actually used the burton ale strain with no starter. Just pitched the vial in. Did you bottle or keg it? Did you condition in the fermenter or bottles? If you bottled, how much priming sugar did you use?

Alright, I'm going to do it. I've decided. I want to do it haha. And I am thinking B3's cooler system. I also think I want the thermometers in them.

jdemshki said:

I'm really trying to broaden my horizons and the one scotch ale I had before was awesome. I actually used the burton ale strain with no starter. Just pitched the vial in. Did you bottle or keg it? Did you condition in the fermenter or bottles? If you bottled, how much priming sugar did you use?

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I don't think that strain is recommended for Scottish/Scotch ales, just because it probably produces some flavors that aren't consistent with that style. Of course that doesn't mean the beer doesn't taste great.
If you can't get the Scotch ale yeast, which is McEwans' strain for both Wyeast and White Labs versions, try Wyeast 1084 Irish ale or Wyeast 1338 Alt. Noonan recommends those strains in his book "Scotch Ale".
White Labs says it's OK to just dump the vial in, but I think you would have seen activity faster if you had used a starter or pitched 2 vials. A starter is more economical and very easy to do. I've been doing small 2.5 gallon batches and I've used a starter for all of them. In addition to faster fermentation, I think my beers taste a little "cleaner" with starters. The Mr. Malty Pitch Rate Calculator is a nice tool that tells you if you need a starter and how big it should be.
I bottled my Scotch ales (actually all my beer, I don't have a keg setup), and I carbonated it to 2 vols. I think that was about 1.75 ounces of DME for a couple gallons, but I forgot to write the exact number down. I left the 80/- in the primary for 2 weeks, the wee heavies for 3 or 4. I batched primed, then bottled. I don't do secondaries any more. Like I mentioned before, these beers really started to shine after about a month in the bottle but will benefit from additional aging, especially the wee heavies.

I used this recipe with a few minor tweaks for one of the wee heavies and it turned out great. You'd be amazed at the flavor you get from such a simple recipe:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=8071.0
Note: Traquair House uses East Kent Goldings hops, not Northern Brewer. I don't think it makes a huge difference though. If you want I can give you the exact recipe I used, it's a little easier to work with.

I just remembered something about yeast: If you're not using a starter, I think the Wyeast smack-packs might have a slight edge over White Labs. The nutrients in the smack-pack make the yeast active prior to pitching, which might get fermentation started faster. That's how it's supposed to work anyway.

I know the OP doesn't want to do BIAB but what's really important is that it's really easy to keep your cost down if you want to. The ONLY thing I went out and bought when I started AG was a big BIAB bag and a roll of aluminum foil.

How I do stuff reaaaaaally simply:
-Heat up mash water. On my stove.
-Mash in a 5 gallon dumpling steamer pot wrapped in lots and lots of aluminum foil to keep in the heat. Not having a bigger pot means I have to do partial mash if I want a big beer but that's OK.
-During the mash heat up more water in some stew pots.
-Dump hot water from stew pots into bottling bucket and dunk sparge in my bottling bucket.
-Divide sparge and mash water between my 5 gallon mash pot and my biggest stew pot and boil hops.
-Put both pots in the bath tub to cool them down. Throw bottles of ice/change bath tub water as necessary.
-Rehydrate yeast.
-Dump everything into the fermenter from the pots (not really bothering to strain just not pouring in the last bit of trub that has sunk to the bottom of the pots).
-Pitch.

Not pretty but I've been managing pretty decent efficiency, zero infections on this set-up and the beer tastes good. Saves me a crap-load of money over using extract without having to make basically any investment at all.

I'm sure you can do something equivalently simple without BIAB. Just strip out everything but the basics. All you're really doing is sticking hot water and grain together and then taking the water out. You don't need to spend thousands of dollars to do that.