Thoughts on my 777 IPA recipe

777 IPA
Est. IBU: 70
Est. ABV: 7%
American IPA (14 B)
Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.65 gal
Boil Size: 7.15 gal
Boil Time: 60 min

Water Prep
1.00 Items Campden Tablet

Mash Ingredients
11 lbs Brewers Malt 2-Row (Briess) (1.8 SRM) Grain 2 75.9 %
2 lbs Caramel Malt - 30L (Briess) (30.0 SRM) Grain 3 13.8 %
1.5 lbs Carafoam (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 10.3 %

Mash Steps
Mash In Add 18.73 qt of water at 167.7 F 152.0 F 60 min
Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 4.35gal) of 168.0 F water
Estimated pre-boil gravity is 1.061 SG

Boil Ingredients
0.50 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 18.2 IBUs
1.00 Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 -
0.30 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 4.2 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 2.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 9 5.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 10 2.6 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 3.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Boil 3.0 min Hop 12 3.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 3.0 min Hop 13 1.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 3.0 min Hop 14 3.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 3.0 min Hop 15 4.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 16 1.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 17 0.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 18 1.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 19 1.4 IBUs
0.60 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min Hop 20 5.9 IBUs
0.60 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min Hop 21 3.6 IBUs
0.60 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min Hop 22 7.7 IBUs

Dry Hops
1.00 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 24 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 25 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days

Est Post Boil Gravity: 1.070 SG

Holy crap.

Psylocide said:

Holy crap.

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Thats the hope...

I'm interested to hear how it turns out... that's going to be a hop bomb, no doubt about that.

I suspect you'll have a little residual sweetness from the 2 lbs of caramel... but will probably balance that huge hopburst/stand/dry hop out.

Hop juice.

I'd drink it.

Ahaha at first glance it does look pretty ridiculous, but then I totaled up the hops. About 16oz is normal for me these days. But I clump my additions together for simplicities sake

The hop bill looks a bit needlessly comlicated, but itll be tasty. Personally I'd keep 1 or 2 oz at 15min and just move all the rest to 0min/steep addition. I mean you arent going to get too much difference from 3 or 5 min additions anyway, I'd rather just toss them all in at the end for simplicities sake and not loose any of that precious hop aroma

I think theres way too much crystal in there though. I am one of those guys that prefers no crystal at all, but even those who do, generally you want under 5%. Over 13% is just way way too sweet. I wouldnt do that much for a milk stout. Check out these articles from Mitch at Stone and Vinnie ar Russian River on brewing great IPAs. Both give a point about limiting crystal
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/5-tips-on-brewing-ipas-from-mitch-steele/
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/5-tips-for-better-ipas-from-vinnie-cilurzo/
they both also talk about adding some simple sugar and mashing lower too, which I would definitely recommend. Itll help you hop character be more pronounced

m00ps said:

Ahaha at first glance it does look pretty ridiculous, but then I totaled up the hops. About 16oz is normal for me these days. But I clump my additions together for simplicities sake

The hop bill looks a bit needlessly comlicated, but itll be tasty. Personally I'd keep 1 or 2 oz at 15min and just move all the rest to 0min/steep addition. I mean you arent going to get too much difference from 3 or 5 min additions anyway, I'd rather just toss them all in at the end for simplicities sake and not loose any of that precious hop aroma

I think theres way too much crystal in there though. I am one of those guys that prefers no crystal at all, but even those who do, generally you want under 5%. Over 13% is just way way too sweet. I wouldnt do that much for a milk stout. Check out these articles from Mitch at Stone and Vinnie ar Russian River on brewing great IPAs. Both give a point about limiting crystal
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/5-tips-on-brewing-ipas-from-mitch-steele/
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/5-tips-for-better-ipas-from-vinnie-cilurzo/
they both also talk about adding some simple sugar and mashing lower too, which I would definitely recommend. Itll help you hop character be more pronounced

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Thanks! I'll be adjusting my grain bill.

Here the new look:

Hop schedule remains, it keeps me busy

Mash Ingredients
10 lbs 4.0 oz Brewers Malt 2-Row 82.0 %
1 lbs Munich Malt - 10L 8.0 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L 4.0%

Mash Steps
Mash In Add 15.29 qt of water at 164.1 F 149.0 F 75 min

Adding 12oz of corn sugar to last 15 minutes of boil - 6%

awesome, what yeast are you using?

m00ps said:

awesome, what yeast are you using?

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American Ale II from Wyeast

Looks pretty good to me. Good call removing most of the crystal and adding Munich. I have started doing no crystal at all with Munich in its place for my IPAs, and I like the results.

Personally, I like to add a small amount of piney/dank hops in addition to the tropical fruit/citrus bombs.

Not the biggest fan of American Ale II yeast, either. I like something a little drier for my IPAs.

True. That was what I was using before I revamped it to be dryer. Maybe just American ale or us-05?

Personally, Ive started using Conan for all my IPAs, even black ones its just such a good attenuator and gives a soft mouthfeel and peachy flavor. You could try using WY1318 London Ale III. Ive heard from a few sources thats what hill farmstead uses

I've used primarily dry yeast in my IPA's and found a couple that really help to dry it out pretty good. First, obviously US-05 is great to accentuate the hoppiness of the beer. Second, I've used Mangrove Jacks West Coast Ale Yeast and gotten three beers down to 1.008-1.009. Pretty dry by my standards.

As for the hop additions, I agree with one of the above posters. Simplifying the additions makes a ton of sense. I'd honestly just do a massive hopstand at the end of the boil. Everything after your 15 min additions I would do that with.

m00ps said:

Personally, Ive started using Conan for all my IPAs, even black ones its just such a good attenuator and gives a soft mouthfeel and peachy flavor. You could try using WY1318 London Ale III. Ive heard from a few sources thats what hill farmstead uses

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WY1318 isn't a very good attenuator, in my experience. I've used it in a few stouts before and they all finished at a slightly higher gravity than expected.

Gonna try 001 I think...

Also, with a hop stand, what do you guys do? Do you cool under 170ish and then put them in? I was listening to BS podcast and they mentioned a hop stand above 170 will still get some isomerization, so adds bitterness.

Thought about chilling till under 170 and then letting it stand for 30 mins...

GundyGang1 said:

Also, with a hop stand, what do you guys do? Do you cool under 170ish and then put them in? I was listening to BS podcast and they mentioned a hop stand above 170 will still get some isomerization, so adds bitterness.

Thought about chilling till under 170 and then letting it stand for 30 mins...

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That's basically what I do. Sometimes I chill to about 180 if I want a little more bitterness. Then I turn off the chiller and turn on the pump. Let it whirlpool for about 30 minutes, then turn the chiller back on. Once it's chilled, I turn off the pump and let the cold break settle, then I drain to the fermenter.

douglasbarbin said:

That's basically what I do. Sometimes I chill to about 180 if I want a little more bitterness. Then I turn off the chiller and turn on the pump. Let it whirlpool for about 30 minutes, then turn the chiller back on. Once it's chilled, I turn off the pump and let the cold break settle, then I drain to the fermenter.

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I don't have a pump, would the same thing be achieved if I just turn the chiller off, let the hops soak for 20-30 minutes and then start chilling again?

Yup, thats what I do

If you don't mind me asking how did you calculate the IBUs for the steep/whirlpool additions? Your IBU values are higher for these than for your 3 and 1 minute additions, shouldn't the IBUs be lower?

Also, I just finished up an IPA with Simcoe and Amarillo with 1272 (american ale II) that came out really well. 1272 definitely brings out more of the citrusy character in the hops.

RayZab said:

If you don't mind me asking how did you calculate the IBUs for the steep/whirlpool additions? Your IBU values are higher for these than for your 3 and 1 minute additions, shouldn't the IBUs be lower?

Also, I just finished up an IPA with Simcoe and Amarillo with 1272 (american ale II) that came out really well. 1272 definitely brings out more of the citrusy character in the hops.

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He probably used Beersmith. The calculations are whacky when whirlpool is a consideration. For example, an addition at flameout is treated as 0 IBU, even though it is added earlier and is probably staying in the kettle for the entire duration of the whirlpool. I think Beersmith assumes that you are going to yank the hops out of the kettle at flameout, for some reason.

Yep, beer smith.

I love that dry hop combo. The hops aside i mash my IPA's at 148 and they finish ~ 1.012, can't stand a sweet IPA.

hottpeper13 said:

I love that dry hop combo. The hops aside i mash my IPA's at 148 and they finish ~ 1.012, can't stand a sweet IPA.

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I guess a good question when talking about mouthfeel and sweetness is what are some of your favorite (readily available) reference ipas?

hottpeper13 said:

I love that dry hop combo. The hops aside i mash my IPA's at 148 and they finish ~ 1.012, can't stand a sweet IPA.

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Mine is estimated to start at 1.063 and end at 1.010, so it should be pretty dry.

So, if you haven't guessed yet, I am a newbie at this all grain stuff. I am looking over my last couple brews and realizing the connection of FG and dryness... My wheat was at 1.012 and has a good mouthfeel, but could be a little more. My pale was 1.010 and I thought that was a little thin, so now I am wondering if I am going to want this to be a little more in body? It's estimated at 1.009, which would be pretty dry...

Thoughts on using Maltodextrine? I can get it to about 1.012 if I take out the dextrose and add a little grain back and raise mash to 150, but not sure how much a difference 1.009 to 1.013 is... Thought from those with more experience?

Ive used maltodextrin a few times, but not in an IPA. The goal for an IPA is to get it as dry as possible. I'd maybe use maltodextrin to correct the FG of a porter, stout, or something like an ESB that ended up being too dry. Though I havent used it in a while. From experience, I've learned to tune my mash temp to get in the desired range of FG. So, basically, for an IPA dont worry about it. The dryer the better

I love American Ale II for hop forward styles of beer. I get 80% attenuation when I use it, have never had a problem with it under attenuating. Give it a try - you won't be disappointed.

Thoughts on Califonia Ale V?

Also, thoughts on Vienna instead of Munich?

GundyGang1 said:

Also, thoughts on Vienna instead of Munich?

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Vienna will be drier and less malty. Probably won't be very noticeable at that amount.

Thoughts on new hop schedule??? Roughly 70 IBU (choosing to ignore ibu calculations in BS for whirlpool since it's under 170f).

First Wort Hops
0.60 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - First Wort 20.0 min Hop 5 11.8 IBUs
0.60 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - First Wort 20.0 min Hop 6 15.3 IBUs

Boil Ingredients
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 8.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 14.6 IBUs
1.30 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 7.0 IBUs
1.30 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 4.2 IBUs
1.30 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 13 9.2 IBUs

Steeped Hops @ 170f
1.00 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min

Dry Hop
1.00 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 19 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 20 0.0 IBUs

So now you're only doing a 20 minute boil?

douglasbarbin said:

So now you're only doing a 20 minute boil?

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No, 60 minutes. BS wants a time for the FWH and since I use my stove it takes a while to get to a boil, then just starting to add at 15 minutes left in the boil.

Based on those IBU numbers though, it seems beersmith is calculating your fwh additons as being only boiled for 20min, when it sould be 60+min. Basically all the IBUs will get extracted from fwh like a 60 or 90min addition

Yeah, FWH includes the entire time spent boiling. That's why a FWH contributes more bitterness than an equivalent amount of hops added at the start of the boil.

m00ps said:

Based on those IBU numbers though, it seems beersmith is calculating your fwh additons as being only boiled for 20min, when it sould be 60+min. Basically all the IBUs will get extracted from fwh like a 60 or 90min addition

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Good point, hadn't thought about that. Still figuring out BS. So how do you calculate that in BS, assuming a 60 minute boil and potentially 20 or so minutes to bring to a boil?

I'd just do them as 60min additions, since they go by how long it resides in boiling wort. Though something like 70 may be more accurate to account for the extraction during the warming up period. I try not to get cauight up in IBUs though. Theres too many other factors that go into the final perceived bitterness on your palate - malt character, yeast flavors and off flavors, FG, temperature, hop freshness and harvest date, even your own sinuses and the last thing you ate that day. I've made probably 30 different IPAs and never bothered to calculate the actual IBUs. Just trial and error

GundyGang1 said:

Good point, hadn't thought about that. Still figuring out BS. So how do you calculate that in BS, assuming a 60 minute boil and potentially 20 or so minutes to bring to a boil?

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I'd put it in as 60 minute FWH. Should be reasonably close, especially since you aren't getting all your IBUs early.

the reason why whirlpool additions are screwy in BS is because instead of going back and adding more IBUs to all of your additions it adds any IBU contributions onto the whirlpool step (since as stated if above 170-180 isomerization will still occur). if you plan to chill to 170 before the addition, simply type in 0 mins steep.

as far as FWH, they say the addition adds perceived bitterness equivalent to that of a 45 min addition. so although the actual IBUs go up, the perceived bitterness might be lower since it's perceived as smoother than a 60 min addition.

a lot of people state that IPAs are meant to be super dry and really feature the hops only. I tend to think that even according to the BJCP guidelines there can be some balancing going on. You don't necessarily want this to just be a DPA or anything, but there can still be a little bit of a balance going on. According to the 2015 styles guidelines an AIPA can be up to 1.014 FG.

I personally like to use this ratio when finding a balance according to style:
http://www.madalchemist.com/relative_bitterness.html
http://www.madalchemist.com/chart_bitterness_corrected.html
It takes the BU:GU (or IBU:OG) ratio and adds onto that the apparent attenuation in order to get a closer idea of perceived bitterness, which is what matters more in the end.

m00ps said:

Ive used maltodextrin a few times, but not in an IPA. The goal for an IPA is to get it as dry as possible. I'd maybe use maltodextrin to correct the FG of a porter, stout, or something like an ESB that ended up being too dry. Though I havent used it in a while. From experience, I've learned to tune my mash temp to get in the desired range of FG. So, basically, for an IPA dont worry about it. The dryer the better

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You are probably better off looking at your mash temperature instead of FG to modify body.