Cider variety help

Help requested. I don't know the cider classification for some of my new apple trees (e.g. "Sharp"), and I'm wondering if the mix of apples I have is reasonably balanced for cider production.

Most of my current cider production comes from 6 ~40 year-old trees from the prior owner, but the IDs are unknown, and the collective pH is 3.8 and tannins are minimal. I planted easy-care eaters 7 years ago, then cider apples 2 years ago.

Here's the lineup. Assume 1 tree each. Classification and balance comments very welcome.

Cider Classification Unknown

• Liberty 3y/o
• Red Belle De Boskoop 3y/o
• Dayton 7y/o
• Chehalis 7y/o
• Pristine 7y/o
• King Apple 7y/o
• ?King Apple? 40y/o (ID unsure)
• ?Arkansas Black? 40y/o (ID unsure)

Sweet

• ?Golden Delicious? 40y/o x2 (ID unsure) (some say G.D. is mild-sharp)

Sharp

• Grimes Golden 2y/o

Bitter Sharp

• Kingston Black x2 2y/o
• Porters Perfection 2y/o

Bitter Sweet

• Chisel Jersey 2y/o
• Medallie D'Or 2y/o

Considering Adding for more Acid

• Cap O'Liberty
• Bramley's Seedling
• Bramlett's Bitter
• Redstreak

Thanks,

--SiletzSpey

The proof is in the pudding, as they say. I think your main problem cider-wise is the lack of tannic varieties. You only have a few bittersweet/bittersharps. You don't need tannin to make a good cider but it can add interest and a nice finish.
My approach is to try and get my apples as ripe as possible, if you give them plenty of time they can develop good flavours. In different seasons different varieties will perform well so you have to make adjustments each year. Each vintage you will learn more, make good use of a refractometer, it will tell you which varieties are ripening best. I'd say you have the makings of some very good cider, it's just a matter of learning how to use the apples you have.

Sorry to hijack the question but... How long did it take your 7 yr olds to produce fruit? I take it your two year olds are not producing yet. My trees are going to be 5 this spring and have not gotten a single apple (not completely true, two years ago I got three apples off of one, then nothing last year).
Sorry, don't know what your trees are classified as but I am jealous of your orchard. I'd imagine you will produce nice cider. Most mass produced cider is largely Mac and Empire so you will at least be as good as Woodchuck, etc...

So what varities did you plant and what is your rootstock? Some like M111 take longer to start to produce than B9. Also last few years have been kind of cold and rough limiting bee flights as well as being tough on the trees. Hoping this year will be one of those years when the trees bounce back from not bearing much last season. WVMJ

sashurlow said:

Sorry to hijack the question but... How long did it take your 7 yr olds to produce fruit? I take it your two year olds are not producing yet. My trees are going to be 5 this spring and have not gotten a single apple (not completely true, two years ago I got three apples off of one, then nothing last year).
Sorry, don't know what your trees are classified as but I am jealous of your orchard. I'd imagine you will produce nice cider. Most mass produced cider is largely Mac and Empire so you will at least be as good as Woodchuck, etc...

Click to expand...

We are doing an Arkansas Black and Grimes Golden mix now, 75% Grimes, turned out a little bit sharp but very good. Is the apples from your Ark Blck tree hard as rocks? This season take some pictures of your apples and post them. You guys out west live in such a different apple growing world than here in the midatlantic that the classical definitions of the euro cider trees might not hold. There is a publication cider production in the northwest, have you gotten that one yet, it lists a lot of apples. WVMJ

You should kick start things by grafting some your bitters onto some branches of the old established trees.

To really judge the unknowns you need to measure their juice. Some of those aimed at fresh eating may be plenty acidic, but diluted by others you may be better leaving out.

I agree that tannins are what's missing.

siletzspey said:

Help requested. I don't know the cider classification for some of my new apple trees (e.g. "Sharp"), and I'm wondering if the mix of apples I have is reasonably balanced for cider production.

Most of my current cider production comes from 6 ~40 year-old trees from the prior owner, but the IDs are unknown, and the collective pH is 3.8 and tannins are minimal. I planted easy-care eaters 7 years ago, then cider apples 2 years ago.

Here's the lineup. Assume 1 tree each. Classification and balance comments very welcome.

Cider Classification Unknown

• Liberty 3y/o
• Red Belle De Boskoop 3y/o
• Dayton 7y/o
• Chehalis 7y/o
• Pristine 7y/o
• King Apple 7y/o
• ?King Apple? 40y/o (ID unsure)
• ?Arkansas Black? 40y/o (ID unsure)

Sweet

• ?Golden Delicious? 40y/o x2 (ID unsure) (some say G.D. is mild-sharp)

Sharp

• Grimes Golden 2y/o

Bitter Sharp

• Kingston Black x2 2y/o
• Porters Perfection 2y/o

Bitter Sweet

• Chisel Jersey 2y/o
• Medallie D'Or 2y/o

Considering Adding for more Acid

• Cap O'Liberty
• Bramley's Seedling
• Bramlett's Bitter
• Redstreak

Thanks,

--SiletzSpey

Click to expand...

Liberty - Dessert apple.
Belle de Boskoop - cooking, higher acid than Granny Smith.
Dayton - Dessert apple.
Chehalis - Eating/baking apple.
Pristine - eating/cooking/juicing apple.
King - There are more than 7 varieties using the term "King," need to be more specific.
Arkansas Black - Eating/cooking/juice/cider.

FYI: Kingston Black is a singe variety cider apple, you can make a great cider from just that apple. You can also blend.

Hope that helps.
Regards, GF.

sashurlow said:

How long did it take your 7 yr olds to produce fruit? I take it your two year olds are not producing yet.

Click to expand...

The 7 y/o from Raintree Nursery were 4' tall at planting with minor branching. All are EMLA 26 rootstock, except 1 with EMLA 7. By year 3 or 4 all were producing about a dozen fruit, but I plucked off all but ~2 fruit so the tree could focus on wood production. At year 7, I'm getting about 7 to 15 gallons of fruit per tree.

In retrospect, I prefer the M7, which is about 2x the size of the M26's. The with M7 growing much faster, I was able to better visualize the scaffold branches and get it trained up.

The 2 y/o from Northwest Cider Supply were 2-3' whips at planting, on a mix of M26, M7, G30 and Sup4 rootstock. None of those trees have fruited yet, and they're still too scrawny to support even a single fruit.

--SiletzSpey

Thanks for the replies. Interesting feedback about needing more tannins, since I've been thinking more acid instead.

Using tannin/malic data from Washington State, I've been using the following diagram to visualize where I'm at.

http://www.barbless.com/share/www-homebrewtalk-com/apple-chemistry-150306.pdf

--SiletzSpey

It's hard to advise about the acid when you are in a different climate. In a cool climate too much acidity is often the problem, but in a warm climate too little acid can be the worry. Most dessert apples and especially cookers will have plenty of acidity. The main concern is sweets/bittersweet cider apples which can be very low acidity.
If you want to try to make a traditional somerset cider, you do wild fermentation and wild MLF. With low acidity a wild MLF will involve a range of LAB bacteria, with high acidity you only get oenococcus oeni. Purists say you need the full range of LAB to get the traditional flavour, I don't necessarily agree. A pH around 3.4 is much safer than a pH around 3.8, but it depends if your approach is safety first or more "complex" flavours, often the complexity is partly taint from wild bugs like lactobacillus.