"Tart" flavour is back :(

Hey guys,

When I first started homebrewing, I started with a Mr. Beer setup. The four or so brews I did with it all had a really "tart" flavour to them. When I started brewing Extract with specialty grains, that flavour went away and I was making (to me) pretty good beer.

However, my last batch and the current one that is just finishing fermentation have the exact same Mr. Beer "tartness". One was an ESB with Maris Otter Extract, no grains and Nottingham yeast, this one is an Irish Red with some Crystal 120 steeping grains and WLP004 Irish Ale Yeast.

Any reason why this "tartness" would have come back in these two very different beers?

From HomeBrew Off Flavors and How to Avoid http://morebeer.com/content/homebrew-off-flavors Astringent
Tastes/Smells Like:
Tart, vinegary, tannin, drying, puckering sensation, may feel powdery or metallic in the
mouth, like sucking on a grape skin or a tea bag
Possible Causes:
Astringency can be caused by many different factors. Polyphenols or tannins are the
number one cause of such flavors. Tannins are found in the skins or husks of the
grain as well as in the skin of fruit. Steeping grain for too long or grain that has been
excessively milled or crushed can release tannins. When mashing, if the pH exceeds
5.2 – 5.6, astringent flavors can be produced. Over-hopping can also lend a hand in
creating astringent qualities.
How to Avoid:
Avoid grain that has been “over-milled”. Grain should be cracked open but not crushed
or shredded. When sparging, pay close attention to the temperature and the amount
of the water used. When steeping grains, be sure to take them out before the water
gets to a boil. Fruits should never be boiled in the wort; instead, they can be added to
the fermenter or to water that is hot but not boiling for 15-30 minutes. Make sure that
the amount and varieties of hops used are the correct types for the style of beer.

Maybe this will help.

And yet one of the brews had no steeping grains in it at all, was straight extract. I don't get it.

Slight correction - I did the ESB that had the tart taste, then I did a Vanilla Porter that turned out fine, then I've done this Irish Red that is tart.

Maybe a sanitation issue. Just a little contamination can cause off flavors.

In my experience I had a nottingham based porter that had this tart astringent flavour (this was before I finished my fermentation closet). I couldn't figure it out until I read that Nottingham is real sensitive to temperature. It absolutely wants to ferment at cooler temperatures. Now I can't say for sure that the flavor would have gone away because I haven't brewed with notty lately. But give it a shot in the mid 60's and compare.

electrolight said:

In my experience I had a nottingham based porter that had this tart astringent flavour (this was before I finished my fermentation closet). I couldn't figure it out until I read that Nottingham is real sensitive to temperature. It absolutely wants to ferment at cooler temperatures. Now I can't say for sure that the flavor would have gone away because I haven't brewed with notty lately. But give it a shot in the mid 60's and compare.

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This is exactly what I was going to say. Notty fermented warm = tart. I made a blonde ale with it that turned out this way when I fermeted 65-67. I made a black IPA with it and fermented 62-64, and the tartness was barely detectable. Fairly certain this is your issue. Otherwise, Notty is a beast of a yeast.

I have experienced similar results using the WLP004 Irish Ale Yeast in a stout, and also using the Hefeweizen Ale Yeast WL300 in a Hefe I brewed.

If the tartness is more of a fruity/citrus type flavor, I'd be inclined to say its esters. The is supposed to be desirable in some beers, like the Hefe..but I don't have enough experience to know if I hit the mark brewing this..I just know I dont care for the ester flavor that much.

A good source of info can be found here
Esters In Home Brewed Beer

The short answer for what's helped me so far:
(1) Choose a clean fermenting yeast that works well at the fermentation temps you can support (some yeast put off much more at the mid to higher part of their temp ranges)
(2) Pitch plenty of yeast. Underpitching contributes to ester production
(3) Oxygenate/Airate the wort before you pitch the yeast

Yeast Strain Chart/Pitching Calculator

Firstly, the 'over milled grain' thing has been debunked many times.

A few questions:

What's your water source? If it's municipal it could be a chlorine/chloramine issue.

What's your fermentation temperature? If you're fermenting too warm that'll create off-flavors.

What's your cleaning and sanitizing regime? It's a possible infection issue, as well.

+1 ncbrewer on his comments and sanitation.

If you brew outside or in the garage, you are at risk of contamination from bacteria dropping in your brew carried by wind. If indoors, making cheese or allowing fruit to spoil will give off spores that will contaminate wort.

Clean/sterilize equipment is the best cure for contamination.

Thanks for the tips, guys. Brewing is always indoors, everything is washed after brewing with PBW and then starsan'd before the next brew day.

The ESB may have fermented a bit on the warm side, don't have exact figures but it was mid-September so ambient room temp.

The Porter (no tartness) was fermented mid-October and would have been rougly 65-68 during the day.

The Irish Red is fermenting in our new house, which seems to run a lot cooler than our previous place. Thermostat set to 70 degrees? We're hitting 65.

We're about 65 degrees in the evenings, 62ish during the day.

Water is city water, which is much harder than the previous place we lived. The house has a water softener.

Could this tartness you describe be attributed to acetaldehyde? You'll know it by its tart, cidery, horrible bad green apple flavour that will stay with you for days.
If so, you could be looking at oxidation after fermentation, taking the beer of the yeast too soon, stressed yeast or even bacterial contamination.

dhutchings said:

Water is city water, which is much harder than the previous place we lived. The house has a water softener.

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You will probably want to do some research on brewing water and a water softener. I have always heard that it's something you do not want to do.

dhutchings said:

Thanks for the tips, guys. Brewing is always indoors, everything is washed after brewing with PBW and then starsan'd before the next brew day.

The ESB may have fermented a bit on the warm side, don't have exact figures but it was mid-September so ambient room temp.

The Porter (no tartness) was fermented mid-October and would have been rougly 65-68 during the day.

The Irish Red is fermenting in our new house, which seems to run a lot cooler than our previous place. Thermostat set to 70 degrees? We're hitting 65.

We're about 65 degrees in the evenings, 62ish during the day.

Water is city water, which is much harder than the previous place we lived. The house has a water softener.

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I think you're saying the temperatures are ambient. The beer can be 5 - 10 degrees F higher than ambient when fermentation is active. A stick-on fermometer will give you a much better idea of the beer temperature.

Also, since you're using city water, I guess that means it is chlorinated - either chlorine or chloramine. Either way, campden tablets will improve your water quality and prevent chlorophenols.

AndytheBeave said:

Could this tartness you describe be attributed to acetaldehyde? You'll know it by its tart, cidery, horrible bad green apple flavour that will stay with you for days.
If so, you could be looking at oxidation after fermentation, taking the beer of the yeast too soon, stressed yeast or even bacterial contamination.

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Oh no, it's not nearly that nasty.

Given that water may be a concern, I might whip up another batch once this one's bottled but buy a couple of jugs of water from my local grocery store and use those instead and see if the tartness exists in that batch.

Nottingham, Irish ale yeast, and So4 are noted to have a distinct 'tart' flavor, which is a characteristic for some English ales. But S04 and nottingham yeast are unpleasantly tart to me, especially if fermented above about 63 degrees.

The Irish ale yeast may be the same way, especially if underpitched (not enough yeast used for the optimum pitching rate) and if fermented a bit warm (above 68).

Could that be what you are tasting? The esters from English yeast strains?

They are definitely distinctly tart, almost weirdly apple flavored.

I wonder if that's it. These two beers are the only ones I've ever used notty or wlp 004 in...

My local water company now uses chloramines to purify, which you can't boil out or get rid of with a charcoal filter. My grocery store sells reverse osmosis water with some trace minerals added. I've been using that (but my tart stout used it to so I think its the yeast esters not my water).

I really think besides the obvious sanitation concerns, controlling our ferm temps will help.

Yooper or anyone else, I've been using notty too, what is the best "clean" low ester producing yeast to use?

Vallan said:

My local water company no uses chloramines to purify, which you can boil out or get rid of with a charcoal filter. My grocery store sells reverse osmosis water with some trace minerals added. I've been using that (but my tart stout used it to so I think its the yeast esters not my water).

I really think besides the obvious sanitation concerns, controlling our ferm temps will help.

Yooper or anyone else, I've been using notty too, what is the best "clean" low ester producing yeast to use?

Click to expand...

FWIW, I have never really had the tartness issue with Notty or S04, but S05 is a clean yeast to use. From what I have read on here though, you don't want to ferment too cool with it or you'll get "peachy" flavours. I haven't run into that personally.

Ill have to give the SO5 a try. Also fixed my previous statement/quote, it should have said can't boil out the chloramines

I shouldn't have worried. Tasted at my pre St. Patrick's Day party on the weekend, the tartness is almost completely gone leaving the creamy, caramely, red ale that I was trying to brew!