I am having the same problem with the last two batches. Brewing IPA full mash method. After the boil 1hr 10 mins chilled the wort and took the reading and tasted spot on. transferred to the fermenter and checked reading in 8-9 days and again spot on however when I tasted the fermented beer it was awful, tasted like ash/burned cigarettes. I noticed that the kettle prongs were black and cleaned them before starting our next brew a week later. Again, All the processes were great until trying the fermented beer and got the same result of ash flavoured beer. Not using DME or LME so cant think of anything that will burn but the hops? not too sure what the actual cause is or how to fix this. Very annoying especially since my first two brews turned out fantastic. Help please.
Burned Wort
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skunkfunk
Well-Known Member
Got a vigorous boil going? If it's not churning it up enough you might need to start stirring. Wort can still scorch.
Yeah its a vigorous rolling boil, never happened on our first two brews however have had the same issue for the last two!
How often do you recommend stirring?
I came up with an idea of suspending the hops within grain bags, perhaps that may help eliminate any hops particles settling and burning on the prongs, which leaves the only culprit being the wort its self.
Is there any reason why I didn't taste the ash flavour after chilling, as the off flavour was after fermentation. I checked all forums on off flavours and the descriptions did not match or resemble ash or burned flavour.
How often do you recommend stirring?
I came up with an idea of suspending the hops within grain bags, perhaps that may help eliminate any hops particles settling and burning on the prongs, which leaves the only culprit being the wort its self.
Is there any reason why I didn't taste the ash flavour after chilling, as the off flavour was after fermentation. I checked all forums on off flavours and the descriptions did not match or resemble ash or burned flavour.
skunkfunk
Well-Known Member
Maybe too vigorous, then? What is your boiloff rate?
You said the taste is coming in later, you might have a problem with sulfur. Could be hops, yeast or water or a combination causing it, or even a bacterial contamination. http://morebeer.com/articles/sulfur_compounds_in_beer
I start with around 27 litres to achieve 5 UK gallons 23 litres however it ends up being much less. Around 17/18 litres so i'm having to add water at the chilling stage and to bring back up to target volume of around 23 litres.
The above probably proves the wort is boiling too vigorously and once achieving a rolling boil I should perhaps turn one of the heating elements off?
Do you think that will help?
The above probably proves the wort is boiling too vigorously and once achieving a rolling boil I should perhaps turn one of the heating elements off?
Do you think that will help?
fizgig, yeah taste is coming in after fermentation which initially lead me to believe the issue was during the fermentation process, however all the forums I have researched for off flavours, nothing describes this. Its like tucking into an ashtray full of cigarette butts and the ash for desert. (not that I have tried that)
The yeast im using is the smack pack Wyeast type, which has been refrigerated and well within the use by date (was actually newly purchased) activated 4 hours before etc. It fermented well and dropped to our desired 1014 final gravity. We are using fresh hops (in suction packs) smelt fresh when opening. We used tap water, though have ruled that out as we used the same source of water for our first batch which turned out brilliant. We did however add water during the chilling stage (this was bottled drinking water) though I don't think that could have caused it. Strange and annoying especially after dumping 120 litres
The yeast im using is the smack pack Wyeast type, which has been refrigerated and well within the use by date (was actually newly purchased) activated 4 hours before etc. It fermented well and dropped to our desired 1014 final gravity. We are using fresh hops (in suction packs) smelt fresh when opening. We used tap water, though have ruled that out as we used the same source of water for our first batch which turned out brilliant. We did however add water during the chilling stage (this was bottled drinking water) though I don't think that could have caused it. Strange and annoying especially after dumping 120 litres
Hi Cannman
We made a double batch so doubled all the measures, split the volume into two plastic fermenters at 23 litres each and used a different strain for each fermenter.
Wyeast American 2 and 1056. We used American 2 on our first batch and came out brilliant. The ash taste was present in both fermenters which leads me to believe it must be something burnt (prongs were black) but also confusing as all forums relating to burned wort are using DME where as we are going all grain mash method.
We are fermenting at 18-20 degrees. Our original gravity was at 1050 (within smack pack range of max use up to 1060) Also within max volume of 5 gallons (UK) for each smack pack.
Also activated as per instructions. Min 3 hours before use at 18 degrees temp
We made a double batch so doubled all the measures, split the volume into two plastic fermenters at 23 litres each and used a different strain for each fermenter.
Wyeast American 2 and 1056. We used American 2 on our first batch and came out brilliant. The ash taste was present in both fermenters which leads me to believe it must be something burnt (prongs were black) but also confusing as all forums relating to burned wort are using DME where as we are going all grain mash method.
We are fermenting at 18-20 degrees. Our original gravity was at 1050 (within smack pack range of max use up to 1060) Also within max volume of 5 gallons (UK) for each smack pack.
Also activated as per instructions. Min 3 hours before use at 18 degrees temp
I'm glad you're tasting through the process, helps narrow down everything!
When I first started brewing, I came away with a ton of off flavors... I made some changes in my process and can now brew consistently high quality beer.
The changes that I made and would recommend to you: Stop fermenting in plastic. It is way too easy to scratch and not notice, the groove harbors some microorganisms, and you get funky flavors or spoiled beer. Use glass carboys but make sure you take safety precautions.
Better sanitation process: Clean with oxyclean, sanitize with StarSan. If I'm working with glass, I'll use Iodine as the bubbles from StarSan will make the glass slippery to both your hands and your bung.
While I always thought I had a great sanitation process with the above, my off flavors really disappeared with fermentation temperature control. I started with an old mini-fridge, heat mat, and an STC-1000. If you are not actively controlling the temps, you can get micro climates in your fermentation area, weird drafts, and your yeast (and other microbs) start making weird flavors.
What would be interesting is to redo the exact same beer but place one bucket in the place they ferm now, and then the other bucket in a different section of the house.
Lets narrow this down
did you look at the article I linked? It describes a burnt match or burnt rubber taste and the causes. Also what sanitizers do you use and what is your water source?
skunkfunk
Well-Known Member
http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/
Check that out. It can be ridiculous some of the problems you can get. Regarding plastic buckets, that's ridiculous. I did at one time have some equipment harbor an infection, after a thorough bleaching it is fixed. Just bleach anything plastic occasionally. Glass equipment is far more dangerous.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/broken-glass-carboy-horror-stories-compendium-376523/
Can you get the local water report for us?
Check that out. It can be ridiculous some of the problems you can get. Regarding plastic buckets, that's ridiculous. I did at one time have some equipment harbor an infection, after a thorough bleaching it is fixed. Just bleach anything plastic occasionally. Glass equipment is far more dangerous.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/broken-glass-carboy-horror-stories-compendium-376523/
Can you get the local water report for us?
I've got to respectfully disagree with your opinion regarding plastic. In my world, if there are two options that complete the same task but one option provides a significant increase *and unnecessary* risk for failure, it gets removed from consideration IMMEDIATELY.
I come with a biology background, I've seen the critters that make AND ruin our beverage. In the Lab, the only plastic we use is disposable for a reason. Plastic is cheap, but a risk. It is what you don't see that's the problem.
Hi Fizgig,
Thanks for your help. Yeah I did read the article and read the bit about burnt rubber, however I don't think it tasted like that, it was like cigarette ash very strong burnt taste.
We use starsan and another type though don't know the name off the top of my head (its a chlorine based one I think which needs to be rinsed afterwards.)
We use tap water, however have ruled out water being the issue as we used the same water source on our first batch and it came out great.
Thanks for your help. Yeah I did read the article and read the bit about burnt rubber, however I don't think it tasted like that, it was like cigarette ash very strong burnt taste.
We use starsan and another type though don't know the name off the top of my head (its a chlorine based one I think which needs to be rinsed afterwards.)
We use tap water, however have ruled out water being the issue as we used the same water source on our first batch and it came out great.
Very annoying situation as the first two were brilliant and we basically followed the same procedure using our notes. Only thing we changed was slight hop variations in the boil and then dry hopping with hop bags, and boiling up double batches instead of single 5 Gallon batches. same yeast also.
skunkfunk
Well-Known Member
I dunno man, did you see those injuries? I'll toss 1% of batches if plastic gives me 1% better odds of never shattering a carboy on myself. That said I do sometimes use glass, but it scares the **** out of me pulling that thing out of my ferm chamber.
The fact is plenty of us use plastic and have no issues with infection. Glass adds a huge risk to injury and not worth it. Just cause you have a bio back ground and work in a lab doesn't make you right.
In my world, if there are two options that complete the same task but one option provides a significant increase *and unnecessary* risk for injury, it gets removed from consideration IMMEDIATELY.
Also it increases risk for failure as well. Ever see a thread where someone lost all their beer cause of a broken plastic bucket or bottle?
I don't brew electric so if it's somehow related to that, I wouldn't know. What I do know is hops can cause some wacky tastes in beer. My early attempts at IPA's had what I could describe as a burnt taste. It was due to too much bittering hops. There's a limit regardless of how much you like hops.
Could it be due to the changes in your hop schedule in combination with a problem with the heating elements?
PPE (Personal perceptive equipment) should be worn whenever something dangerous is being handled. I wear Kevlar gloves, long sleeves, an apron, and ANSI goggles whenever it comes time to carboy handling. Most people do not take proper precautions and they get injured in case of an accident. Most people don't wear ANSI goggles or glasses when using a power drill yet instructions to do so are issued with every unit. Same thing with driving a wearing a seat belt... we know the risks... it is a personal decision.
Yes, but the topic of issue here is that someone IS having problems and issues and we need to solve it. Perhaps the buckets are defective from the manufacturer, scratched from poor handling by the seller, etc. etc., if the OPs process is sound, it must be the equipment. Despite my background, my argument is sound advice. Plastic VS. Glass is a constant ever ending debate on this forum, but no one can deny that glass is more durable and resistant to scratches internally from brushes, cleaning, solvents, etc. I left a carboy for 2 years abused in the open sun subject to rain, mud, dust, dog piss, etc., and I was able to clean it and sanitize is and brew successfully (that carboy is still in rotation!). No one would try that with a plastic bucket. Here's the post where I talked about, brief, but it happened. Anyhow, this forum is a place of opinion, everyone is entitled to it here, lets all focus on brewing great beer
skunkfunk
Well-Known Member
I really doubt that gear will save you from a carboy disaster. If you trip and smash it on a countertop or something, that glass is coming down on your foot. Steel toed boots might or might not be enough there depending on where it hits you.
Perhaps. But you still take the precautions. If there was better protection, I'd do it. Limit risk. My seat belt won't save me from all scenarios, but I'm still buckling up. Just because something is not 100% fool-proof is not a reason to forgo it.
They do make these fashionable safety boots though!
skunkfunk
Well-Known Member
I like those, would wear.
While I've got your ear, are there any good cheap gloves that are both easy to work in and will protect from hot mash / boiling wort if for some reason I need to reach in my mash tun? Wife really hates it when I ruin her cooking gloves.
SmokeyMcBong
Well-Known Member
What type of element(s) do you have in your boil kettle? Ultra low watt density are recommended, that being said, I have a low watt density element that seems to be fine. I think if you are using a high watt density element then that's probably your problem. If you're already using ultra or low watt density then disregard!
Yikes! Why would you reach into the tun? If I were to drop an item into the tun such as a thermometer, I'd spoon it out or leave it in until I was done. If you're talking about reaching in with ACCIDENTAL contact... I found these on amazon. I've never really had a reason to reach into the pot and I have a 16gal which is deep. Tell me more!
EDIT: Yes I have reached in: it was to remove my false bottom so I could stir the almost completed batch to ensure my measurement was from a well mixed sample. I used tongs and an oven mitt...
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skunkfunk
Well-Known Member
Last brew day I crushed the crap out of my braid with some excessive stirring. Worst stuck sparge. Had I some elbow deep gloves I might have been able to fix or rip loose the braid. Instead I wound up scooping into a grain bag for an hour+
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PPE (Personal perceptive equipment) should be worn whenever something dangerous is being handled. I wear Kevlar gloves, long sleeves, an apron, and ANSI goggles whenever it comes time to carboy handling. Most people do not take proper precautions and they get injured in case of an accident. Most people don't wear ANSI goggles or glasses when using a power drill yet instructions to do so are issued with every unit. Same thing with driving a wearing a seat belt... we know the risks... it is a personal decision.
Yes, but the topic of issue here is that someone IS having problems and issues and we need to solve it. Perhaps the buckets are defective from the manufacturer, scratched from poor handling by the seller, etc. etc., if the OPs process is sound, it must be the equipment. Despite my background, my argument is sound advice. Plastic VS. Glass is a constant ever ending debate on this forum, but no one can deny that glass is more durable and resistant to scratches internally from brushes, cleaning, solvents, etc. I left a carboy for 2 years abused in the open sun subject to rain, mud, dust, dog piss, etc., and I was able to clean it and sanitize is and brew successfully (that carboy is still in rotation!). No one would try that with a plastic bucket. Here's the post where I talked about, brief, but it happened. Anyhow, this forum is a place of opinion, everyone is entitled to it here, lets all focus on brewing great beer
Yeah, i'm not going to argue over the benefits of using glass. But i don't think any one is going to go to the length that you do for safety when dealing with a glass carboy. i know i wouldn't and knowing myself i know id end up breaking a glass carboy if i had one.
You're right, hopefully OP gets this resolved and can get back to making good beer.
Don't worry bro. in 20+ year we will have robots that will lift it for us.
skunkfunk
Well-Known Member
Dont worry, it will be available for everyone. maybe you can get an Obama Bot.
Hey Minky
Thanks for your advice, loading up on too much bittering hops may have been an issue as we did add stacks of Chinook at start of boil. I think about 88g (10 gallon batch though)
Do you think that this could have caused the strange ash tastes?
Thanks for your advice, loading up on too much bittering hops may have been an issue as we did add stacks of Chinook at start of boil. I think about 88g (10 gallon batch though)
Do you think that this could have caused the strange ash tastes?
I think it's likely. I haven't used Chinook a lot, but it is said to have a smoky character to it. It has a fairly high alpha acid content (usually in the 12-14% range), so it wouldn't be difficult to overdo it. 88g is a little over 3oz., so you'd need a pretty solid malt backbone to balance it.
Most of that delicious hop character comes from the later additions anyway.
Hi Guys
We have started brewing again and to try eliminate the ash taste we thoroughly cleaned the caked black prongs from the previous brew and as a secondary measure used hop bags to suspend from a coat hanger rather than throwing directly into the wort to avoid scorching on the prongs.
After chilling and taking reading we transferred the wort into the fermenter. We noticed that the prongs were black again and when trying the wort there was a hint of ash flavours again. This leaves no doubt that the issue is now the black burned prongs.
How do we avoid this from happening again and quite frustrating dumping litres of beer after a hard days brew?
We also spoke with the brew shop where we bought the boiler from and he suggested we thoroughly clean the prongs, we did that though the problem is they blacken during the 1hr and 10 minute boil and release the burn flavour into the wort.
Any suggestions?
We have started brewing again and to try eliminate the ash taste we thoroughly cleaned the caked black prongs from the previous brew and as a secondary measure used hop bags to suspend from a coat hanger rather than throwing directly into the wort to avoid scorching on the prongs.
After chilling and taking reading we transferred the wort into the fermenter. We noticed that the prongs were black again and when trying the wort there was a hint of ash flavours again. This leaves no doubt that the issue is now the black burned prongs.
How do we avoid this from happening again and quite frustrating dumping litres of beer after a hard days brew?
We also spoke with the brew shop where we bought the boiler from and he suggested we thoroughly clean the prongs, we did that though the problem is they blacken during the 1hr and 10 minute boil and release the burn flavour into the wort.
Any suggestions?
skunkfunk
Well-Known Member
Is the boil pretty vigorous?
Hi Skunkfunk
The boil is very vigorous. To give you an idea we start off with 23 litres and it boils down to about 17 (we add back chilled water to make up the losses)
I was thinking, once achieving a rolling boil I should turn one of the prongs off for the boil duration. What do you think about that?
Any other suggestions are welcome.
Thanks
Tomash
The boil is very vigorous. To give you an idea we start off with 23 litres and it boils down to about 17 (we add back chilled water to make up the losses)
I was thinking, once achieving a rolling boil I should turn one of the prongs off for the boil duration. What do you think about that?
Any other suggestions are welcome.
Thanks
Tomash
skunkfunk
Well-Known Member
That's a pretty normal boil-off rate. You might try it sometime just to see if it fixes the issue, though. Have you tried stirring until it gets rolling?
I have not tried stirring though from what I have read others have suggested stirring every 3-5 minutes during the boil process.
I will definitely try the stirring and turning one kettle element off once vigorous boil has been achieved.
Thanks for the advice
I will definitely try the stirring and turning one kettle element off once vigorous boil has been achieved.
Thanks for the advice
skunkfunk
Well-Known Member
My thought is that it may be scorching before the boil has it agitating. I believe you should stir the wort once you turn on the burners, until it begins boiling. After which, my gut instinct is you don't have to stir any more.
Can you post a closeup picture of the prongs? I doubt they are ULW density, which have a smaller surface so hotter per sq. inch.
How many batches did you brew with it before the 2 (now 3) ruined ones?
How many batches did you brew with it before the 2 (now 3) ruined ones?
