taking the homebrew plunge- please help me decide the best route!

hello everyone,

after reading about beer-making, taking an all-grain one day class and becoming a cicerone cbs, i am FINALLY ready to attempt a brew.
i am torn about what to purchase and would really appreciate some advice.

here are some factors:
-i live in an apartment in chicago, so space and temperature are a factor. i know that chicago water is prime for brewing ipa's as is the usual indoor temp, so that is probably what i will brew first.

-i am horrible at math. like really, never passed algebra 1 bad.

-i would rather not purchase extract equipment only having to upgrade to an ag setup a few months later. i don't have a ton of cash to put into this, so i'd like to get something that can go the distance.

so. as a first time brewster, should i attempt brew in a bag? if so, should i sparge?
should i get an extract set up? should i make one kit brew just to get a feel for it? i saw the thread about how to use an extract set up for all grain brewing, so i know that's possible.

with all that is available in extract form, is there really more recipe freedom with all grain?

decisions, decisions. your wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

I do partial mashes using the BIAB method. I found it hard to keep a steady temp using the stove, and so I tried making an insulating koozie for it so as not to take up too much room. It worked rather well except that I got expanding foam on it, and so I had to buy another pot.

Definitely sparge! I use a large metal colander and pour my sparge water on the grain bag and then use a plastic cup to press the liquid out. Doing this several times helps a good bit. I also allow gravity to drain out more and pour that in periodically.

You'll need a very cool ambient (air) temp (<60*) if you aren't using something to keep the beer's temp within reason. It will easily get 10* warmer than air and about 5* warmer than chilled water.

All-grain or partial mashes opens up all the doors for you. Just using extracts and steeping grains leaves out many options. It was the desire to make a rye pale that pushed me into partial mashes. You can still make most beers using extract and steeped grains though.

I think it good to start a little simpler such as extract and steeped grains to get the feel for it.

I also think you should make a check list prior to brew day to help you do things in proper order.

Go to your local home brew shop and introduce yourself ... they will be a great resource for knowledge, after all they have a stake in you learning to brew and coming to enjoy it.

Get a pot (stainless is best, aluminum will work but it can react to cleaning products, so only wash with water) that is the appropriate size for your apartment and the size batches you want to brew (you will need this for extract or AG). You'll get about 8-bottles of beer per gallon (and you'll lose a couple gallons through the brewing process ... evap, waste, samples, etc).

Get a bucket for fermentation (food grade, from the brew shop)

Get the standard accoutrements (thermometer, hydrometer, stainless spoon, airlock, Star-San sanitizer, spray bottle)

Get an extract kit (pay attention to the volume and figure out how it synchs to the size pot you bought - consult your brew guys).

Make beer!

You'll need to decide whether you are going to bottle or keg (kegging will require some investment and as the hobby becomes an addiction, you'll probably go that way ... most people start with bottles).

So, you'll need to get a case of bottles, either buy them from the shop or accumulate, clean and sanitize what's left after a raucous Saturday night.

Read through this forum and chat up your home brew shop guys about bottling, carbonating beer. You'll need a couple more tools (racking cane, bottle capper) and another bucket.

All this gear will transfer to AG when you are ready. When starting though, focus on getting comfortable with the basic process, developing sanitation techniques, and managing your fermentation and packaging. All brewing funnels into these critical steps ... everything else is basically techniques for making wort, the sugary water that yeast will convert into beer. As you get into the game, you will discover the various techniques available and chart your path and all this equipment will scale to your next generation.

Oh - and hit up You Tube ... all kinds of guys showing how to make beer there.

Here's the pot koozie:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/crazy-concept-487019/

Another great idea is to preheat the oven and put your pot inside. Mine has plastic handles and so I couldn't do that.

I also prefer aluminum pots as they heat up/cool down much easier. I brew indoors and need all the help I can get.

I wish someone had let me know when I started just how much of an impacted temp control makes. Buying a small fridge or freezer with temp control falls into the not-necessary-equipment category, so you can get started without it. But I'd highly suggest as you start buying more add-ons (you will), put temp control high at the top of your list. Managing fermentation is the single most impactful change you can make, IMHO. I'd suggest saving money that you'd spend on some AG equipment, and put it towards temp control extract/PM.

In my limited experience the best advice I would say is get the largest kettle you can offered and a burner and do BIAB I wish I would have gone that route but I opted to build a mashtun. I moved up to all grain after only two batches so I would def recommend to skip extracts but that's just me.


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Where do you place your probe?

+1 to TAK's advice on temp control!

In the meantime you can either use a water bath or build a small fermentation chamber such as the one skitter built. I'm not sure what the cost to build was, and so it may not be worthwhile.

But the size was his issue, and it's compact holding 2 Mr Beer fermentors, and runs off of a frozen water bottle, fan, and a thermostat to control the fan.

I did the water bath since late 2011, and only recently got a freezer. Now I can actually enjoy life and not need to concern myself with needing to get back to swap frozen water bottles or deal with an unhappy SWMBO for taking up nearly the whole freezer (we have 2 fridges).

doverox said:

-i live in an apartment in chicago, so space and temperature are a factor

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This is probably the most important detail in your decision. Generally I'd agree with the other poster that said skip extract/PM and go BIAB, but realistically what is the largest kettle/most amount of water you think you can bring to a boil?

I'm assuming you're on a stovetop here, i.e. can't run a propane burner.

TAK said:

I wish someone had let me know when I started just how much of an impacted temp control makes. Buying a small fridge or freezer with temp control falls into the not-necessary-equipment category, so you can get started without it. But I'd highly suggest as you start buying more add-ons (you will), put temp control high at the top of your list. Managing fermentation is the single most impactful change you can make, IMHO. I'd suggest saving money that you'd spend on some AG equipment, and put it towards temp control extract/PM.

Click to expand...

I agree ferm temp control is important, but if you have a space (closet) that you can maintain 60-70 degrees, you'll be fine until you start getting geeky and really want more precise temp control. If you can find a dorm fridge on craiglist and a temperature controller (they will cost about $75 on Amazon), you will be happy.

I jumped straight in to AG BIAB and it's been great I also didn't want to have to do the equipment upgrades later or spend too much to get started so I pieced everything out over a couple of months. Craigslist is great there is brewing stuff on there all the time I got a complete standard kit (bucket/bottling bucket, autosiphon,tubing, bottling wand, & a wing capper) for like $30 or $40. I use a $15 digital instant read thermometer I got at Target & a 10gal stock SS stock pot I got from Amazon for like $70-$80 like this one and a $60 camping burner also from Target. And a bag from Wilserbrewer...

This setup has worked great for me it was fairly cheap and I haven't come across a beer I couldn't make although if I were to redo it I may go with a 15gal pot I cut it close sometimes with my mash size on larger grain bills.

As for sparging I did get 2 five gallon buckets from Lowes and drilled holes in one to let my bag drain in and sometimes I sparge by pouring water over the grain from a pot or pitcher if I am low on volume.

and +1000 to reading up and watching YouTube videos this helped a lot. Also if you have room a chest freezer and a johnson control go a long way in helping make great beer. I bought one before I brewed my first batch but that is up to you if you want to take it that far right off the bat. It's worth it though!

Good luck!

you guys. you are the best.

this is already so, so helpful!

i discovered another potential option for my current living space. anyone used or heard things about the micro bru gear?
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/all-grain-brewing/micro-bru-small-scale-brewing.html

thoughts?

btw- how did i not think of youtube?!!! sometimes, i don't know about me.

A lot of brewers do the 1gal it's not for me b/c I drink too much beer lol...burrrp...

but that doesn't mean it's not for you... I just don't see putting all that time into like a 6-8 bottles of beer that would be gone in less than a week, but to each their own I don't know your drinking habits, but I can tell you I didn't drink nearly as much beer before I started making it.

I have grown a much bigger appreciation for beer since I stared brewing. So basically I'm saying how much beer you drink now may not correspond with how much you will consume a year from now. When you make it it makes you want to enjoy the fruits of your labor... Also if you are like me and you spend a good chunk of your day on HBT it kinda makes you want a beer lol...

Start with extract if it makes you feel more comfortable with the fermentation process, almost everyone does this. Just don't skimp on kettle size, a small kettle will be the only thing you won't really need as you upgrade. And you can always put a smaller batch in a big kettle, doesn't work the other way though.

I would get a clear plastic bottle like a big mouth bubbler so you aren't opening the bucket to check it all the time.

doverox said:

you guys. you are the best.

this is already so, so helpful!

i discovered another potential option for my current living space. anyone used or heard things about the micro bru gear?
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/all-grain-brewing/micro-bru-small-scale-brewing.html

thoughts?

btw- how did i not think of youtube?!!! sometimes, i don't know about me.

Click to expand...

Don't listen to the nay-sayers - small batch brewing is where it's at.

Heck we even have a 450+ page thread on here with all the wacko's like myself that enjoy brewing less than 5gal of beer at a time.

There a a lot of benefits to brewing under 5gal, but you also have to realize that you're doing the same amount of work for less product. Sometimes that's import to some folks - but to guys like me that enjoy; brewing as often as possible, having multiple styles of beer available in the fridge, not worried if a potential recipe could be a stinker and suffer through it, well, small batch brewing is awesome.

I'll be honest, I now brew 3gal batches, and with just me and the Mrs drinking occationally, they take longer than I thought it would to kick the kegs! Don't know how those guys with 10+gal batches finish them!

Apparently, I need more beer drinking friends (or just friends that don't homebrew as much as I do).

My advice:

1) Find someone local to you (possibly from HBT) and see if you can brew with them for a day. You will learn so much from one session that you can ask questions, participate, and see the process first hand.
2) Do a partial mash/extract beer for your first run. Sure you could do BIAB first, but for your first run remove some of the voodoo/blackmagic that is AG and have a stable, working base to work in. Practice pulling a coin from the ear before attempting to saw the woman in half, ya dig?
3) Read/watch videos/don't be afraid to ASK QUESTIONS before you do it!
4) You're already on HBT, so you've got a huge lean in your favor already.

Beer making is as expensive or cheap as you want to go - but be warned, cheap will only get you so far before you end up buying expensive for one reason or another. I brewed cheap for 5 times before I started to spend money, and it went down hill from there. The trick is to recognize where you can be cheap, and where you need to spend the money - and you can't do that right out of the gate.

Above all, have fun - that's what this is about. The beer is an awesome byproduct of the process.

sumbrewindude said:

3) Read/watch videos/don't be afraid to ASK QUESTIONS before you do it!

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full disclosure:
i did things super backwards and it makes me feel like people will judge when i ask questions about things i "should know" already.

do you think i should bother taking the extract class at the same place i took the ag? the reason i skipped over it the first time is because i knew the process of brewing and fermentation on paper, and thought it would translate to hands-on technique. it doesn't.
i would LOVE to be able to shadow a homebrewer for a day of brewing but unfortunately, the only one i know does extract beer kits

Doing an extract kit is not a "bad thing" - there are LOTS of people that do nothing but extract and make great beer doing it!

There's different kinds of extract brewing - everything from Mr. Beer's dump two can's in water with yeast and let it ride, to partial mash brewing that lets you steep some specialty grains at 150ish (just like the BIAB guys do) then bolster the body of the beer with extract so you don't have to stress over holding mash temps/sparging/reaching your SG before boiling.

If you're a new brewer that's literally all thumbs, a possible danger to yourself and kitchen, have been accused of licking paste well into your 30's, etc the two cans and a prayer might be the best option.

If you've already taken an AG course, you'll be ready to try partial mashing. Same idea, less initial stress - bring water to 160F, put grains in and stir, hang out for 30min, remove grains, add in extract - stir, boil with hop additions - DONE.

I say brew the the extract dude/ette for a round and see what they do - compare it to what you learned/read/saw on Youtube/absorbed from the flapping heads of HBT. Root through the cupboard for a 5gal pot, go get a 5gal paint strainer bag from HD/Lowes/Menards/where ever, get a partial mash kit and brew it.

If you have questions on the small batch thing, head over to the 1gal Brewers Unite thread - we're a friendly bunch and more than willing to help.

First of all, what somebrewindude describes is not partial mash, that's extract with steeping grains. I do partial boil, partial mash brew in a bag, & it's still mashing like all grain, but only mashing part of the fermentables. I mash as much as 6lbs + of grains around 153F for one hour in 2 1/4 gallons of water wrapped in my quilted winter hunting coat to hold temp. Then dunk sparge the grain bag in 1 1/2 gallons of water @ 170F for ten minutes. This allows me to stir the grains to get greater efficiency. Using a nylon 5G paint strainer bag in my kettles helps this. So I get about 3 1/2 gallons boil volume in the same 5 gallon (20qt) Stainless steel stock pot I started with. After the boil, I add the 3lbs of DME or 3.3lbs of LME at flame out. Since pasteurization happens in seconds at 160F, just covering the kettle with it's lid will do fine for the couple minutes it takes to set up an ice bath to chill the wort.

My suggestion: www.brooklynbrewshop.com - their concept looks to fit your situation perfectly.

The two books that they publish are very much worth getting, as well.

Yep, my bad - I did explain steeping/extract instead of partial mash. Unionrdr's explanation of partial mash is more accurate.

I still vote steep/extract for the first brew, then partial mash as it's close to the same concept just more AG vs extract, then AG if that's where you want to go.

I know I started AG right out of the gate with no help and only a few youtube video's to guide me, and while I did make "beer" thankfully I'm a stubborn sonofagun and kept with it until I made GOOD beer, like 5 batches later.... So it's possible, but why get discouraged right out of the gate. Brew a couple, make some mistakes and learn some things, and then apply it moving forward.

these are all excellent points.

i think what i am leaning towards at the moment is either small batch ag or brew in a bag.
i realized that another factor in my purchase is that we will most likely move when our lease is up in june. i would rather not have to transport a larger set up or have to disassemble anything once i'm comfortable with it.
if i do small batch, i can get some practice and while i probably will upgrade eventually, at least i can probably sell the used stuff for a few bucks.
who knows, i may even decide to keep it for test runs...

so i guess the decision is small batch all grain! i will definitely head over to that forum too but if you guys have suggestions on what to buy, thanks in advance! you have been so helpful.
this site is amazeballs.

BIAB is by far the cheapest method to AG or PM. Just get a nylon mesh bag to fit your kettle.

unionrdr said:

BIAB is by far the cheapest method to AG or PM. Just get a nylon mesh bag to fit your kettle.

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my concern with biab is the space issue. i don't have a garage or anything like that. also my microwave and cabinets are position about 2 feet over two of my burners, so i have limited space.
and then there's the pulley situation.

i guess if i did small batch biab...

I have the same situation with my stove/microwave combo. My BK is shorter & wider than the tall ones commonly used. Being 5 gallons, but short allows it plenty of room on the stove. And PM BIAB I do is fine, since I mash off the stove wrapped in my quilted winter hunting coat. Everything works if ya let it...

Hi, Doverox -

A little more on the Brooklyn Brew Shop, now that I'm further into my first brew:

I've found this concept from BBS to be very "small-space-friendly," in that the only space I've used so far is my stove-top, our kitchen sink, the kitchen counter, and an area in my closet that is the same size as a covered plastic bin/tub. To me, you can't get much better than that, in terms of space. I am sure that someone with a little more experience could explain how to adapt the BBS concept to BIAB, if you want - but I currently don't see a need to do so.

Another thing I am discovering is that while BBS does sell pre-packaged mixes (nearly all of which look really good, to me), most (if not all) of those mixes are rather flexible, allowing you to push your brew in a particular direction as you please. See this link for just one example of doing one of their kits at least deven different ways, if you want to:

http://brooklynbrewshop.com/themash/summer-wheat-seven-ways/

Even beyond the pre-made mixes, the one-gallon set-up can easily be used for creating your own completely-original recipes. The two books sold by BBS contain around a hundred recipes, all of which are interesting and most of which I'd truly like to try - doing so woulld be a step in my learning about brewing, as I eventually conceptualise and build my own brews entirely from scratch. As you read the book, you can see where they actually took the time to really dive deep into the history and development of beer; it's a unique approach that appeals to me, as I am not a "mad scientist" or "PhD chemist" type....

One last point I would like to make is that I don't see one-gallon-sized batches as "brewing with training wheels" or anything like thait. This is real, all-grain brewing of actual beer; the mixes they sell and especially the recipes they offer in their books (the recipes come in both one- and five-gallon amounts) range from the simplest and most basic to complex and historical varieties. Once I find some favourite brews and/or someting I want to have a lot of on-hand, I can "up-size" those favourite recipes for 5-gallon brewing, but I personally don't think of it as "up-grading," just because the batches are bigger. The small, one-gallon-sized batches are perfect for my space and consumption requirements - but even beyond that, they allow me the flexibility of trying different things and really learning some fundamentals about not only brewing beer, but also how different favours and varieities interact with each other, and how adding one thing or another will affect the final product. With a one-gallon batch, you have the freedom to do this, but with a 5-gallon batch, everything needs to go just right, or you've got 50 bottles of wasted effort. This can stunt creativity and development.

Don't get me wrong, I have and am acquiring the equipment necessary for 5-gallon brewing as well, but I absolutely do not think of it as an "up-grade," as if the one-gallon batches are inferior. They're not.

Hope this helps - I'm NOT an employee or spokesman for BBS, but at the same time, I believe that they're really onto something with their concept; with your space requirements and also the fact that you are learning the fundamentals (as I am), I honestly think that they are the way to go.

Ron

doverox said:

-i would rather not purchase extract equipment only having to upgrade to an ag setup a few months later. i don't have a ton of cash to put into this, so i'd like to get something that can go the distance.

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Extract equipment can be transitioned to AG brewing. AG brewing would just require the purchase of additional equipment.

^^ Yep. Biggest limiting factor is the boil kettle size - go with the biggest one you think you might need, then get one bigger.

guys,
can you check this out and tell me if it would be good for biab?
i have a TON of store credit at kohl's so i could get this free. i'm going to measure the space above my burner to make sure it is doable of course.

http://www.kohls.com/product/prd-1304235/camp-chef-24-qt-covered-aluminum-fry-pot.jsp
seems kind of perfect though, unless i am missing something.

You'll have to build up an oxide layer in it, being aluminum. Boil water in it for 30 minutes to do so.

Lots of excellent comments here. Just a few comments.

BIAB IS all grain brewing. It is not a matter of "I'll do BIAB or AG."

One of the advantages of small batch brewing Is that you can brew a lot an dial in your process.

Get John Palmers book "how to brew." It is the best overview I know of.

Good luck

doverox said:

my concern with biab is the space issue. i don't have a garage or anything like that. also my microwave and cabinets are position about 2 feet over two of my burners, so i have limited space.
and then there's the pulley situation.

i guess if i did small batch biab...

Click to expand...

If you are planing on using your regular kitchen stove small batch my be the way to go that or partial boil I doubt you can get 5gal of wort up to a boil on a regular stove... I know I can't on my gas stove even using 2 burners.

You can move the pot to the counter or something to pull the grain bag out so you don't have to deal with the space issue. You shouldn't need a pulley I don't use one on my 5gal BIAB setup I pull the bag by hand, the heat doesn't bother me (I work in a kitchen) & it has never been too heavy for me. If your hands are not used to heat you may want to invest in some gloves though...

BroStefan said:

Lots of excellent comments here. Just a few comments.

BIAB IS all grain brewing. It is not a matter of "I'll do BIAB or AG."

One of the advantages of small batch brewing Is that you can brew a lot an dial in your process.

Get John Palmers book "how to brew." It is the best overview I know of.

Good luck

Click to expand...

thanks! yes, i have that book. and i was aware that biab is ag, i just meant i was deciding between using the bag or not.

it appears more and more that small batch biab is the best option for me seeing as i will be stovetop brewing.

mkyl428 said:

If you are planing on using your regular kitchen stove small batch my be the way to go that or partial boil I doubt you can get 5gal of wort up to a boil on a regular stove... I know I can't on my gas stove even using 2 burners.

Click to expand...

yea, i was concerned about that.

if i brew a small batch in a larger pot will it affect the temperature maintenance?
or should i just get a smaller kettle for now?

what material holds the heat best?

I would imagine SS would hold heat better than aluminum but IDK for sure. A larger pot may effect it a bit but the beauty of BIAB is you can directly heat your mash using the stove just make sure the bag is off the bottom of the pot first and continuously stir any time you are applying heat with the grain in the pot so you don't scorch it.

A lot of people wrap their kettle in a blanket or a winter coat during the mash to keep heat in.

After partial mash in the biab style for more than a year now, I've found the size of the kettle versus the amount of grains in the bag & water volume definitely matter. A mash of, say, 2lbs of grains in nearly a gallon of water will loose heat faster in a 5G kettle than 6lbs+ with 2 1/4 gallons of water. Head space also governs heat exchange, in other words. I gave up on trying to maintain temp on the stove while mashing. I wrap it up in my quilted winter hunting coat to do so, as mentioned earlier. So small mash should have small kettle to minimize head space & thusly, heat loss in my experiences.

Nothing wrong with the pot you have listed, even being aluminum. Just means you'll need to be careful with cleaning it (no BKF!). You may want to check the size (height) to make sure it clears your microwave, I know if I would try that with my frier pot it won't.

Also as a heads up, that size pot works GREAT with the nylon 5gal paint strainer bags from the home box stores. There's your bag for BIAB - you get two for 5 bucks. Then when you're ready do drain, just pick up the bag and put it in a colander over the pot. You probably have a cheap colander that'll work fine.

AFA retaining heat, you can do it a couple ways - like mentioned before, you can wrap it in insulation (that silver Reflectix stuff from HD/Lowes/Men works great and isn't too expensive) like a coat/foam/etc. Make sure the burner is off if using something flammable (duh). If you pot is short enough, you could even put it in the oven on low to mash in, just make sure it fits first!

Don't stress over holding the temps perfectly, there'll be some drift. If it gets low, heat it up and stir. Not a huge deal, IMO, especially for a beginner brewer so long as you keep it within a few degs of your optimum temp.

in case you guys are curious, i've finally made a decision.
i'm going to get that 24 qt. aluminum kettle that i posted earlier, and i plan to start with 2.5 gallon brew in a bag batches.
we are probably going to move next summer, so i'll be sure we find a place that allows for an upgrade. hopefully by then i'll know what i'm doing haha

thank you very much for all of your help! you'll be seeing me around.

Go to basicbrewing.com and watch all the video podcasts. The guys are great and show you how easy a lot of things are. The radio podcasts are a little more in depth, but you don't get visuals.

OK so, i did it!

thank you for all your encouragement and help.
i have a follow up question for you, though.

i created a simple american ipa recipe for biab. seeing as this was my first time brewing, i set it for a fairly low efficiency (72%).
when i checked my pre-boil gravity, i was actually .010 over, which means i underestimated my efficiency, right?
i also ended up with almost a gallon in the fermenter more than predicted by my software.
would this also be due to underestimating my efficiency? i did not squeeze my grain bag, i just let it drain in a strainer.
incidentally, they told me to use 5.12 gallons for 5.5 lbs. grain and i ended up with just under 4 gallons. i was able to keep mash temp fairly consistent and did a full 60 min boil with no problem.

it's in the fermenter and i saw activity within like 15 mins. it's been 13 hours and she's bubbling away, i assume this is a good sign.